clevermanka | Saturday

Saturday

Guardian/adjacent
Those smiles.
Behind the scenes Zhu Hong, Lin Jing, and cat Da Qing.

Friends who've watched Sleuth of the Ming Dynasty, when does Tang Fan start exhibiting some level of basic adult competency? I love Sui Zhou so much and Wang Zhi is coming into focus wonderfully but I'm really bored with Tang Fan's antics and I need to know he starts being less annoyingly hapless soon.

Only five chapters left to post of Deconstruction. People seem to be really enjoying it which makes me feel so good. I'm a little blown away by the response, to be honest. I knew Ghost Story would have a limited audience due to a number of factors, but I didn't realize how many more people would engage with something that didn't have the MCD tag. 😆

Thursday at the Asian grocer (a new store for me, since the one I used to go to is way over on the other side of town) a guy who'd been stocking shelves on the other side of the aisle I was on approached me with his mask pulled down to his neck while I was waiting at the checkout. I panicked! I said something (probably unintelligible) about not being comfortable with unmasked people, I gestured at my own (masked! OBVIOUSLY!) face, dropped my (full!) basket on a nearby counter and literally ran out. So now I can never go back there again! 👍 I drove to my old place for curry paste and rice noodles where they have a huge plexiglass sheet hanging across the entire checkout counter.

Yesterday I did a bit too much. Ran final early morning errands to pick up things I'd forgotten on Thursday (because of course) and on impulse bought a larger humidifier at the hardware store. It's already made such a difference and my nose is much happier. But once I was home I decided since the car was out of the garage I should drag out the bathroom shelving unit (one of those that goes over the toilet) for spray-painting (it was a hand-me-down, very worn, and frankly hideous in white). I knew I wouldn't have enough paint in any one of my rattle cans so I used four different colors--started with a textured dark gray, then the flat matte olive green, followed by a metallic gold and then a last spritz of silver. It looks like mottled, sparkly moss now. When my Truth Coming Out Of Her Well shower curtain arrives, they're gonna look great together. After it dried, I hauled it back into the house, re-set all the stuff on it, and laid down for a moment. Woke two hours later and was pretty groggy for the rest of the day.

Even though I should probably take a day of rest after that, I gotta prep the food I bought Thursday before the vegetables start to wilt. I'm making split pea soup and this pureed zucchini soup for the freezer. The cabbage potato curry (which I'll have to fudge because I have no whole spices) can wait another day at least. Tomorrow or Monday I'll see if I can finish assembling my bed now that I have the broken piece back (which the guy did a really great job on, hurray!). Gonna try partially screwing in the side braces to hold them in place while I attach the top and bottom.🤞

I'd already decided to isolate as much as possible starting this weekend, but yesterday my county issued a more restrictive... idk what to call it, advisory? Nothing government-mandated of course (can't restrict our freedoms in the US! [unless you're a woman, or black, or queer, or disabled, or or]). Among a few other things, they recommended people limit gatherings from 15 to 10 and places can't sell booze after 10pm. Because that'll really make a difference.

Is anyone else frightened of the COVID vaccines? I wish I wasn't so prone to tin-foil-hat paranoia. I'm just honestly terrified of there being long-term side effects that we have no way of observing yet. I already have enough health problems and while I've always been strongly pro-vaccine this one feels different. What precedence is there for something like this going through testing so fast? I don't trust anything or anyone right now and I hate it.

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Re: the vaccine, as far as I can see, the main candidates are going through the full testing regime. It's faster than usual because they're being put straight from phase 1 to 2 to 3 without delay, and because the approvals process is being run as much as possible in tandem with interim results becoming available, and because production has been ramped up before approval (which isn't usually done, not because it's a safety risk but because it's a commercial risk). It's actually commendable that safety *hasn't* been compromised. Well, maybe in Russia it has...

(I'm in a phase 3 trial via my hospital. Dunno if I got the vaccine or placebo, of course.)

That cabbage, potato curry sounds really good. Actually, it sounds like it *smells* really good. I'm going to try it since I'm about to go 1.5 weeks kid-free.

I'm a layperson and have no medical expertise that could help with your worries. But if you're asking for a head-count of sorts - I personally am excited for the vaccine, and I haven't seen any suggestion that actual safety is compromised. (As opposed to the economical risk of starting production before approval.) If it gets EMA approval, I won't hesitate to get the shot(s) once it's my turn. (My point of nervousness around the initial breakthrough news was more like, stuff has been going pearshaped this year left and right, waiting-for-the-plot-twist kind of apprehension. But now that they're prepping the trucks, that has faded. :)

I'm sorry I can't help with Tang Fan - I know I ended up liking him, and I usually don't like the annoying hapless ones, but I don't have a good grasp of timeline. There is one subplot fairly late where he annoyed the crap out of me after already being in my general good graces, so maybe he is a bit of a dicey character...

this thread crossed my timeline about half an hour ago and it made me feel a lot better.

Thank you for your reassurances! My trust in well, anything really, has taken such a beating lately. I hate being That Person, especially when it comes to science, but Here We Are I Guess.

eta: The fact that she deleted? the entire thread? walks my confidence back a bit.

Edited 2020-11-21 20:49 (UTC)

Oooh, good luck! Let me know how it turns out. (and I'm gonna be putting in a Penzey's order early next month so let me know if you'd like to add anything to my order)

I can imagine a lot of people turning up in comments to try and reassure you about your (totally valid and I understand why with your experiences of illness you would be worried) concerns about the vaccines would be annoying so I guess I'll just say: I'm sorry it's something you're feeling unsure about, and I hope that once the vaccines have been approved by the regulators and more data is available it might help a bit.

(I'm in a stage 3 trial so you can tell I'm feeling confident, but I also have the privilege of general good health.)

This thread that just crossed my tl made me feel much better. See my comment to

feroxargentea, above. eta: The fact that she deleted? the entire thread? walks my confidence back a bit.

Some people on Twitter reassured me that he does let up soon, which was reassuring. I realize that personality ~quirk~ is A Thing in Chinese culture but I've had too much experience with Men And Their Learned/Cultivated Helplessness for me to find that tolerable for long. Thanks for the warning about a later return to bad habits!

Edited 2020-11-21 20:50 (UTC)

Yes! This Twitter thread made me feel much better. Thank you! I just haaaaaate feeling like a freaked-out OLD, you know?

eta: The fact that she deleted? the entire thread? walks my confidence back a bit.

Edited 2020-11-21 20:50 (UTC)

Skuld has a biomed PhD and literally works with clinical trials and their DMs are definitely open for HOW VACCINES?? questions. I make them tell me everything we know about the trials (since they publish all of their results and stuff openly) and it's really helping with my own concerns and anxieties. Yay vaccine!

Your bathroom sounds like it will be amazing! That's so much work! (Please rest!)

♥♥♥

Eep! I thought it was a good thread. It looked like people were being kinda argumentative in comments so maybe it was because of that.

If Skuld is feeling good about this, that does help. I was feeling all confident about that Twitter thread but then OP deleted it and I'm like 😬

Eventually I'll get around to buying new towels (*after* obtaining a paycheck) and it'll look great! I should take more pics of the (bricked-up) fireplace now that things are in their (mostly) final configuration, too. My place looks so nice! I want to share it with people! (including sexy people who are interested in getting busy on my couch but also friends that I can feed 😄)

Oh, and thank you for the reassurances re: Tang Fan!

Edited 2020-11-21 21:06 (UTC)

Severe adverse reactions to vaccines are supposed to be incredibly rare, and certainly rarer than the deaths from getting the actual disease. Most seasonal flu vaccines don't go through the rigorous testing process that the big Covid-19 leader vaccines are currently undergoing (with phase 3 studies often being conducted in more than 20,000 people). That said, many of the new types of vaccines have novel mechanisms of action, like the mRNA vaccines in development by Pfizer and Moderna. But there are also other vaccines being developed which use more traditional techniques, such as the Sinovac vaccine, which uses an inactivated form of the virus.

I can't tell you that the vaccines will be 100% safe, because no medicine is 100% safe and without risk of side effects, but I'll be getting whatever is approved, when it comes out. A lot of the speed that is happening right now isn't because we are cutting corners, it is because everybody is working harder and faster, setting up the trials, recruiting participants than we normally do. The people working on the Covid-19 vaccines aren't pulling 9-5 days, they're working in shifts around the clock, which is why things are so accelerated right now. They are still going through the same processes and the same robustness of data, just with an air of determination. The speed at which everything is happening does not make me leery about the safety profile.

Hope this helps.

Edited 2020-11-21 21:55 (UTC)

Thank you for the reassurances. My biggest concern is like eighteen months later some freakish side effect will crop up--probably only seen in people with thyroid autoimmune diseases or something.

This paranoia brought to you by someone who's been let down by numerous medical treatments, including a failed tubal ligation. Ha ha! Good times, good times.

Edited 2020-11-21 22:04 (UTC)

One of my friends who works in vaccine dev (not this vaccine, but is part of the general Oxford science set) was saying on Facebook that you really should not worry about the speed -- in normal vaxdev most of the time is spent sitting around trying to get approval paperwork to move to the top of the boards' lists, getting funding etc. Here those non-clinical delays have been eliminated, but it doesn't mean that the *actual trials* have been sped up as compared to a normal vax.

And I've now found someone else on twitter saying exactly the same thing!

Thank you! It's a relief to take something off the anxiety pile, at least a little.

So now I can never go back there again!

Yes, you can go back. Just not before leaving a comment on the shop's facebook or whatever about the irresponsibility of their staff, which they'll hopefully follow up.

Regarding vaccines,

rekishi have offered to answer questions here: https://rekishi.dreamwidth.org/18146.html
IDK what their qualifications are but it might be a place to start?

Personally, I think that the speed isn't necessarily a concern as long as the testing samples are sufficiently large and the ingredients already sufficiently known. But... I realize that's a somehwat uneducated view, I know nothing about vaccines really.

I knew I wouldn't have enough paint in any one of my rattle cans so I used four different colors--started with a textured dark gray, then the flat matte olive green, followed by a metallic gold and then a last spritz of silver. It looks like mottled, sparkly moss now.

Your easy creativity never ceases to amaze me.

My biggest concern is like eighteen months later some freakish side effect will crop up--probably only seen in people with thyroid autoimmune diseases or something.

This is a distinct (but very small) possibility with every medicine, tbh, given the length of most phase 3 studies, and the trial population they enroll. Again, I can't tell you that's not going to happen, because I cannot predict how your body is going to react. A "very rare" side effect is one that happens in less than 1 out of 10,000. But that doesn't mean never. What you have to consider is the question of how likely you are to get a serious case of covid that will fuck you up, versus have an adverse reaction to the vaccine. I think the likelihood of the former is probably many orders of magnitude higher than the latter, so the benefit/risk ratio still comes out on the benefit end, both for the population and for myself.

Edited 2020-11-22 12:15 (UTC)

Re. the COVID-19 vaccine: for me it's less the creation and testing (which are not being shortcutted) but more the unproven technological base of an mRNA vaccine; but this concern is mitigated by the excellent result in human trials. There's never been an mRNA vaccine before.

Upside: the vaccine can't give you COVID-19 (it's not a weakened version of the pathogen shot into you to provoke an immune response). Downside: as you point out, unknown long-term adverse effects, like cancer. Downsides have to be weighed against the upside of millions of people not immediately dying; and the fact that the long-term adverse effects of COVID-19 infection can be pretty bad themselves.

The fastness is a result of the fact that scientists have long been testing mRNA vaccines; so those working on this topic anyway got lots of help and money to speed it along. It's not like MAGIC! VACCINE! but rather HARD WORK! THROW MONEY AT IT! And human trials have been sped along, ironically, by the fact that people in the control group caught COVID-19 faster than expected, so they hit their numbers of cases in record time, so yay for their statistical modeling.

I'd say it's too early for you to make an informed choice about getting the vaccine. We'll know more as the science advances, and you can talk to your doctor. I personally would be OK getting the vaccine.

Yeah. *sigh* Love walking this tightrope. Much enjoy, so excitement.

Just not before leaving a comment on the shop's facebook or whatever about the irresponsibility of their staff
Good point! OTOH, if I get the KU job 🤞🤞🤞 I'll be on the side of town with my old store fairly regularly so...

My concerns with the speed isn't necessarily are they even testing this so much as I really wanna see how other heavily immuno-compromised people react first. Which, let's face it, is a small enough demographic it's not gonna happen in a reasonable amount of time, if ever.

Your easy creativity never ceases to amaze me.
I stared at this sentence for so long because...I never really thought about it like that. I've never considered myself An Artist because mostly what I do (what I like to do! this isn't a slam on me or my abilities) is copy other people until I can do something (vaguely) similar on my own. But this is kind of what all artists do, isn't it? And pairing that with my appreciation for using things up until the very last bit sometimes makes for some necessary innovation. Hm. Interesting angle to see it from. Thank you for the perspective.

There's never been an mRNA vaccine before.
This, exactly. And how will it affect us Existing Health Issue Special Snowflakes? *emoji shrug*

It's how painting and drawing used to be taught.

Fingers crossed for the job!

mostly what I do (what I like to do! this isn't a slam on me or my abilities) is copy other people until I can do something (vaguely) similar on my own. But this is kind of what all artists do, isn't it?

Yes, and also, quite honestly, you just casually do things in a way that would never occur to me and it turns out good and I'm like... give me 'paint by numbers' please!

This is not to do myself down, either, there are things I'm extremely good at. Just this... I marvel.

You'd think, as both a fine arts and art history major this would've occurred to me before now but forest, trees, etc. etc. 😆

you just casually do things in a way that would never occur to me
TBH, this is largely the source of the Clever Manka appellation (given to me over half my lifetime ago by an ex). I suppose being (metaphorically) quick on my feet is its own sort of creativity.

It's good to be happy with our own skills and talents! *fistbump*

There are other vaccines in development that aren't on the mRNA platform, though. We will end up with multiple Covid-19 vaccines from multiple companies, so there may be an option to go for a specific one if you're leery and want to steer away from the mRNA-based ones.

TBH, I feel that the mRNA platform, which just encodes a specific portion of the SARS-COV-2 spike protein, would be unlikely, through its mechanism of action, to do anything adverse in and of itself, like give you something as specific as cancer. Your own body would still need to produce antibodies against it, which means that the end result between those vaccines, and the usual type of inactivated SARS-COV-2 based vaccines, is the same.

I'm sorry. There is risk that comes with everything.

I personally don't think there's any reason to fear the covid-19 vaccines, regardless of mechanism of action, over any other already approved vaccine. In the end, vaccines are about teaching your own immune system how to recognize something new. If you have a fear that the SARS-COV-2 spike protein is structurally similar to another protein in your body that you would develop an autoimmune disorder from having antibodies against it, the same risk would exist if you caught the virus in the wild, and your body generated its own antibodies against it.

Not sure if that makes you feel better or not about the vaccine vs the risk of actually catching covid.

Edited 2020-11-22 15:49 (UTC)

Not sure if that makes you feel better or not about the vaccine vs the risk of actually catching covid.
LOL, me neither! But at least with the vaccine I won't suffer the immediate effects of the illness so there's that. 😆

Thank you for bringing more science to the party!

I saw something that was talking about people worrying about this “rushed” vaccine, and basically they (scientist, presumably legit, at least as far as I researched it) said it isn’t that it really takes tons of time to get medicine out but the bulk of that time is spent trying to get funding to keep trials and things going, whereas with this vaccine, it’s got tons of money, tons of people willing to participate in trials, tons of backing by various agencies. I always assumed the process took so long to watch for long term effects and trial and error and Science. And while that may be a side effect of the long process, it’s mostly down to money. Now, I’m also more trusting than maybe I should be, so probably somewhere in the middle between you and me is the real answer, but it is just something I’ve been thinking about.

Oh, actually, I do have some Penzey's items I'm out of but don't feel like going clear to KC for. I'll email them to you!

It's always good to get the perspective from people on all ends of the spectrum. I know I'm an distrusting soul and I'm grateful to surround myself with people who aren't.

OMG, only five more chapters, you say?? That means I can either read it during that weird nothing-week between Christmas and New Year's, or the dull, hangover-y period that comes right after. Both excellent times for long haul fic immersion!

You can totally go back there again! You weren't the one being rude!

The last chapter will post December 2. Hurray for having a block of time to immerse yourself in it!

I might go back once we have a vaccine and enough time has elapsed... I also have a soft spot for the lady who runs the other store so other than the extra time to get there, patronizing her isn't a burden (her granddaughter is adorable and inherited a sizeable chunk of my Hello Kitty stuff when I was purging a couple years ago).

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