clevermanka | A common thread

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A common thread

Some of you might know I'm the listmom for a Yahoo! group that focuses on sewing and repair of vintage/repro clothing. I started the group in 1998 on a majordomo listserv (anyone remember those?) as a way to get away from one particulary unpleasant person on the old vintage clothing listserv that I'd been on since the early 90s. I moved the group to Yahoo! in 1999 and it has steadily grown to a membership of just over 400 members. It has ups and downs as far as traffic and content, but I've never had any major problems with unpleasant posters, flames, or disregard for the basic rule I set, ages ago: Play Nice and Be Polite.

Today, someone posted a message that began "I hope you don't mind that I am sharing this, but I think everyone should know the type of people in this group." For a moment, my heart sank. But no--the message was one of gratitude and happiness over how the poster was greatly cheered by a package in the mail from a listmember, who didn't even ask to be reimbursed for shipping. What a wonderful reversal of mood for both the poster and myself! The past year or so, traffic on the group has been pretty slow. I've considered dissolving it more than once. It was wonderful to be reminded that the list is still helpful, appreciated, and continues to aid people in forming connections with other sewing-types all over the world.

I've formed aquaintanceships and a couple very good friendships through the group. Like LJ, listservs and usenet news (now I'm really dating myself) have provided millions of people a way to expand their social network and develop friendships that would not have been possible twenty years ago. Myself, I value these connections greatly. I realize they aren't the same as face-to-face interactions, but they are not so trivial as many would like to think.

Last Thursday, out with the guys, one of them (whom I don't know well) denigrated the concept of online friendships. He stressed that electronic communication could not possibly be as intimate or important as "facetime" (his word). I think electronic communication is different, yes of course, but I think it can be just as influential in forming, building, and continuing a friendship. I have friends with whom I have built a better friendship through email and LJ whom I see regularly, and I have friends on LJ whom I very likely might never meet in person. I value them all. While I don't think our current human psyches will cease to need physical interaction anytime soon, disparaging electronic interactions as something less than friendship does two things, both negative: It insults me and many of my relationships, and it denies the naysayer a great opportunity to expand a potential, wonderful, and diverse network of friends.

A pity, that.

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I never want to meet...oh..wait...damn. :P

I am still on lists that use majordomo, but that last time that I administered one was for Reckoning. I still get on usenet too.

Now, if you would have started talking about bulletin boards or Delphi--that is a blast from waaaaaaay distant past.

I have 3 good friends that have known me for 12-14 years that I meet online. It seems so strange that I've known them that long too. One of them even made the trip for my college graduation--something that my own family who is much closer didn't do.

I also have a group of people on my FL here that I only know because of LJ, and I'm quite happy to have had the opportunity to get to know them.

so does this guy think that the great friendships and love affairs that were started & maintained by letterwriting in times before phones and internet aren't as real as "face time"???(such as between Freud and Jung, Robert & Elizabeth Barrett Browning and a number of others I can't remember now!) Goddamn I wish I could remember some of the really famous correspondences that occurred primarily thru letters...damn my oldmemory!

Anyway-does he discredit HUNDREDS Of years of friendships that have been maintened by pen and paper only=people separated my miles who never met???? HOW can he stand by that theory???

what a jerk!

Lemme at him...grrrrrr! I completely agree with you and the (astute and articulate) commenter above!

I have met absolutely wonderful folk through LiveJournal, in particular, whom I've never as gotten to meet in person but I in no way consider the friendships to be less valid, less real or less important than the ones I know in person. I am daily grateful for the modern technology (all the while damning it for the immense amounts of time it consumes!)

I don't think he was being a jerk, really--just shortsighted.

And you're absolutely right about the letter writing relationships. Damn! I wish I'd thought of that at the time.

*hug* to you, baby. You're one of my long-time e-pals and I appreciate you so much!

My then-BF ran a local bulletin board in 1994! Good times, good times.

That's awesome about your friend showing up for graduation.

tattooedartgirl is one of my best online friends. I think we hooked up on a rockabilly board back in '96? Sometime in there. I've visited her in person a few times, but it's definitely been the electronic communication that keeps our friendship thriving. Neither of us has the time time actually write a paper letter. =D

I think people who make these types of all-encompassing statements without any sort of educated debate reveal more about themselves than about their argument.

Of course, I wasn't there to know if he had any intelligent defense to his statement or if he just declared it as being true because he thinks so.

Unfortunately, he never had a chance to defend himself or hear the other side. When I said "I disagree," the conversation immediately moved to a different topic. I'm not sure if that was just the normal flow of conversation change, or if the other guys at the table didn't wanna see Miss Red throw down. =D

that is very true. Also as Lydia said-him being shortsighted and not thinking about any other possiblities.

and I apologize for calling him an ass..that was an all encompassing statement on my end!

I think that humans as a rule will use any form of communication available to reach out and connect with others. First with letters, then with telegraph, telephone on through to what we have in place today...one can only imagine that humans will continue to adapt techology to meet the very basic need of communication with others.

Online communication is as valid as any other form, although it does suffer from the communicative limitations of the written word, so certain care needs be taken to work through the difficulties that can invariably arise. In some respects, though, I think the majority of issues that arise on that level actually stem more from a person's assumptions as to meaning (in that, I think, that people will jump to the worst possible conclusions about what someone "must have" meant by what they wrote, rather than assume that the person on the other end of the computer probably meant something less, if not at all inflammatory, or better yet, something completely different).

Considering the course my life has taken over the last several years, I cannot help but value the connections I have made through the electronic medium. It opened up my world to possibilities that most certainly would not have existed otherwise.

Although I will say, that face to face time, because of the nuances of communication, is the mode I prefer over others. But I wouldn't devalue the importance of the other modes, and what they have and do bring to my world.

D.

WEll, I need to apologize-I'm sure he wasn't trying to be a jerk-just comes off that way! I don't know him, I shouldn't judge so quickly.

My guess is they didn't want to see you thrown the smack down on him! Lucky for him others were there!! LOL

people will jump to the worst possible conclusions

Unfortunately, that response is not limited to written/electronic interactions.

I absolutely still have friends from back in the BBS days and from, for god's sake, my days back on Q-Link with my C64 (or, as I liked to call them back then, "my friends from the Q" (which, I might add, now makes me giggle)). Most of those I have actually since met in real life but, you know what, there are some of them I haven't and who I *still* keep up a conversation with via groups, the blogosphere, and there's actually one here on LJ, and that's been for ... what? 17 years now?

I'm a fan of written communication as the formation of deep relationships. When Jim and I met, we worked in the same office and one day I left him a handwritten note about something on his desk and he wrote me back. So, I wrote him back. And then he wrote me back. And I still have, in giant expando folders, the HUNDREDS of notes we had written each other all those months before our first date. And, during that time, we never talked in the office, never went to lunch, nothing. We had a correspondence-only relationship even though we saw each other 5 days a week. Very strange, I see now, but I credit the depth we got to know each other purely intellectually (via writing) before anything else for the fact that we are still together 17 years later.

Lalalala, done babbling now! :)

I think that there can be deep internet friendships because of the nature of people. The internet may be depersonalizing, but that can work to advantage. I'll agonize over posting something on my journal, but not nearly as much as I agonize over telling people in person. Because of the depersonalizing environment people will actually reveal more of themselves, their true personality and feelings, because they either feel that few people are listening or that those few that do judge them harshly can just be separated out and discontinued as friendships, which is much easier on the internet than it is in real life.

Just my experience, though.

we are still together 17 years later

Wow, that's amazing. Congratulations!!!

people will actually reveal more of themselves, their true personality and feelings, because they either feel that few people are listening or that those few that do judge them harshly can just be separated out and discontinued as friendships

This is a fascinating observation. The first part is something I've observed many times, and it can be good and bad. The second part, about discarding internet friendships easier, is something I hadn't considered. Very interesting. Of course, like you said, nothing is true for everyone, but still. Something to chew on. Thank you for this bit of insight!

Cool! I'm a truly sucky letter-writer myself as my name-sake aunt can attest.

I truly hold great hopes of meet some of the dear on-line friends I've made yet haven't met in person at the wedding this fall.

Well, I know I've been very happy to be able to keep up with you in some form or other after meeting you only once! But then, I belonged to a group of friends all the way back in high school who came from different places and kept up via letters. I also kept in touch with my sisters via letters and then e-mail when we were separated by thousands of miles. It's true you don't know a person as well if you can't see them--but words are an amazing technology for packing the heart and soul in a very small space.

words are an amazing technology for packing the heart and soul in a very small space

And you, darling, have an amazing talent for beautiful words. Gorgeous! Thank you.

Three of my closest dance friends are long-distance and we first met on a majordomo listserv that is still operating. One of the dearest lj people I know I met on (eep, here's an admission) on an aol bulletin board, but we've never met ftf and keep finding each other in various places.
Pshaw on people who may quite frankly, simply have a problem maintaining any sort of relationship.
.. and if it weren't for this lj and email, you and I wouldn't be so close despite not seeing each other often.
Here, have some flowers!

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A common thread

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