Opinions are like a...yeah, you know

[clevermanka]

I made this comment in a friend's locked post today but thought I'd cut the general text and paste it here. Here at KU it's the month of the February Sisters, with lots of feminist lectures, activities, etc. February also, unfortunately, saw the death of Betty Friedan this year.

I'm a feminist. Very much so. And yet I would love to be a "home-maker"--build a warm, friendly, and efficient home for someone. I would love to cook frugal, tasty meals and incorporate leftovers into fantastic second-dinners. I would love to sew fun, artistic, yet classic clothing items for a partner. I would love to have the time to volunteer at the Merc. I would love to devote time to working on art projects without worrying about them being my main source of income. I would love to Take Care of a partner and, quite literally, have that be my job (For now I Take Care of graduate students and that's a decent compromise).

I've been bashed several times by feminists who believe that the Women's Liberation Movement was about gaining personal and financial independence for women no matter what the cost. I believe that the Women's Liberation Movement was about giving women a choice.

I am a feminist, yes. I believe women should have the option to pursue whatever career path they chose, and get paid the same as a male counterpart. But I know that for myself, I am more comfortable in the standard gender-role stereotype of caregiver. There are a lot of women like me who are disparaged so often for this that many of us have fallen into the sad attitude of "I'm not a feminist, but..." And that makes me so very, very angry--at the women themselves who stopped fighting for that feminist title, and the women, calling themselves feminists, who eventually wore them down.

OK, that said, here is my piece I wrote on the tongue-piercing experience: Biting the Bullet. It's a PDF file. Deal. EDIT: professormass was kind enough to put the document in HTML format for you guys. Here 'tis, not that anyone's mentioned it. *cough*

My wrist is aching today from too much typing yesterday, so I'm taking it easy today.

Comments

[black-king.livejournal.com]

I'm totally with you. I was raised to believe women could make their own choices - including the choice to stay home.

[alt-rorschach.livejournal.com]

Currently I work with a number of women in their 40's to 60's. In many ways, they have exchanged on stereotypical view of what a woman can be for another. No longer the homemaker - but now the working Mom. To them, the idea of choosing a different path is heretical and I believe this is largely because for this generation and those to follow to choose to do what they worked so hard to be liberated from, makes them feel discouraged - as though the years of struggle were not worth it. They also have a much more negative view of men – although their own relationships might be solid – and I believe this negativity is what drives the unfairly negative view of what a feminist represents.

I believe the true sign of success with the feminist movement is not that it will only liberate women but men will realize that it frees them as well. With the freedom from a requirement to compromise to a gender driven live path for BOTH sexes, people can now choose to set up their relationship in the way that make the most equitable, rewarding manner to THEM. That said, I think our sex in general still struggles with the choice and many still view the choice to be a homemaker as a less valuable one. Perhaps we're not far enough beyond the days where choice was not there, not secure enough in the recent changes - but I have hope for us yet.

[tessagratton.livejournal.com]

see, but without personal and financial independence, women CANNOT have choice. So in order for it to be about choice, it has to be about gaining women personal and financial independence first.

Now that being said - if you have personal and financial independence, and you CHOOSE to put that towards caretaking, towards partnership, fuck anybody who says otherwise.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Yes, but I'm talking about the women who have told me (in these exact words) that I am a traitor to the women who fought for women's rights because I would prefer to be a home-maker.

[tessagratton.livejournal.com]

But caring about their opinion is like worrying about Pat Robertson's when you're talking Christianity.

extremists and psychos. the lot.

;)

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, it's getting to the point where we must pay attention to the extremists. They're the ones in control. It's because we ignored them that they've gained so much ground.

AUGH. Must. Stop. Typing.

[shrijani.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, it's getting to the point where we must pay attention to the extremists.

YES. And that applies to everything. I've been banging that drum for two years, now, and no one wants to hear it. The BBC is now quoting James Dobson (http://www.family.org/docstudy/) - that's power. Fanaticism is mainstream now, and people need to sit up and take notice. No more can these people be dismissed as fringe freaks with no credibility. They're the ones with the influence, with momentum in their organizations.

I realise this is a bit of a digression from the line of your discussion, but I got all excited by your statement.

[rowangolightly.livejournal.com]

*nods* Yes, I've been told that exact same thing. And I raised my oh-so-snooty right eyebrow and looked all the way down my nose at 'em. Fuck 'em, indeed, or as George Carlin said, "UNfuck 'Em!"

I am most definitely a feminist and don't see that changing. Do I see that to be in conflict with my current blissful role as Susi-Homemaker? Not at all. Because it is what *I* choose to do and how *we* choose to run out lives together as equal partners. Of course, I define that differently than oh, say, Red. But that is the cool part of having choices; we get to make them based on our life's experiences and personal philosophies.

Bottom Line? I don't trust bigots nor zealots of any flavor. And yeah, I'll be in their faces about it if I need to be.

[hurricanedeck.livejournal.com]

without personal and financial independence, women CANNOT have choice

Neither can men, for that matter.

[rorschachsix.livejournal.com]

The first woman I dated in college was a feminist, pretty hardcore with the freedom that the first year of being away from home brings. We had a great time together but it did not last. Only after we broke up did I find out that she thought *I* beleived that a woman's place was in the home because my Mom has been a homemaker since she had me. I just kind of laughed because she really had no idea the things that my mom did while raising me and my two brothers and the things she does now that we're all on our own.

That and she thought my dad was the devil incarnate because he was management at a chemical company.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Your dad is the devil incarnate. I thought you knew. Seriously, dude. Wake up. Nobody can be that cool, funny, *and* a Republican. He's obviously in league with the hordes of hell.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

*cough* I just realized: For those of you who have not actually met rorschachsix's dad, he's uber-cool. The above is supposed to be funny. Ha ha.

[starstraf.livejournal.com]

um, Pooch is pretty kewl and a Republican

[rougewench.livejournal.com]

I wholly agree with you that true freedom for women (and frankly for men) would be for women to be able to freely make the choice to be whatever they want to be. Your life is your own, make the choices that make you happy. Fuck anyone who tells you what you are supposed to be.

For myself, I could never allow myself to be wholly finanically dependent on another person, or put in the socialized position of being subsurvient to another's needs, as it is giving over too much control of my own existence. This is wholly based on my need to be in control of my life, thanks to my early relationship experiences (including the abusive first marriage). I will meet a partner in the middle (meaning equitable split of finances and household duties, but nothing more. But you see, that is what equal means to me.


D.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Rock on! I'm planning to attend. I had no idea you two were emceeing. Kick ass. See you there!

[bestill.livejournal.com]

I'm with you--I LIKE taking care of someone. I'm not so much a betty crocker home-maker, but I like to take care of someone. I think that was part of my attraction in this last, short-lived "situation" I was in. But I also want to to be reciprocal. I want them to take care of me. And I'm not talking financially. I think it's just part of sharing yourself and nurturing. I think I'm at my best when I'm in a reciprocal, loving relationship where I can do sweet things for someone, and they can do them for me. I don't think that makes me any less of a "feminist". But like you, I'm sure they would have something to say. I'm not the silent type, just wanting to take care of my man and putting up with whatever he does, and have a smile while it happens. And I know you aren't either.

I'm not sure what the answer is. I'm just kind of blabbering here. I see the nurturing/care-taking as an equal opportunity. I don't want it to be one-sided. I think if I didn't care if it were one-sided because that's what a woman is supposed to do, THEN it would be an issue. I see it as openly sharing myself from my heart, and I love doing it, and I want it in return. That just seems like a caring, human quality of a nurturing person--male or female . . .

[fantomas71.livejournal.com]

Oh, to be free of -isms, and to be allowed to be your own individual without someone wanting to sign you up for their damn army.

That's my quarrel with the Left that keeps me centerward and got me into all kinds of trouble in surprisingly-political Social Work school: you must be allowed to be your own woman, man, hetero/homosexual, member of a minority group, or whatever. Left or right, no one has the right to tell you how to live, ever.

I think it's a tremendously retrograde idea to demand that all of X group be of X political stripe or inclination. It's easily as un-American as wiretapping without a warrant. Here are a couple of simple steps to address this situation.

1) Announce your intention to give these fascist feminists the finger;
2) Do so with great gusto and perhaps verbal accompaniment.
3) Repeat as necessary.
4) Go about your business as you see fit.

You dated a white male?

[bluebuddha.livejournal.com]

In that mood, a relevant quote from "PCU"...

Jock #1: [at a party] What's up, babes?
Womynist #1: Pack up your rape culture and take a hike!
Jock #1: [holds up a beer] You want a brewdog?
Womynist #1: We're not interested in your penis!
Womynist #2: Wait, wait, I think he's offering us a beer.
[turns to jock, speaks slowly]
Womynist #2: Um... Yes. We, would like, a beer.
Jock #1: Okay!
[turns around to get a beer]
Womynist #1: So it's like, if you're nice to them, they *bring* you things?
Womynist #2: Exactly.

Re: You dated a white male?

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Mr. Jock sounds infinitely more fun than the chicks. Oops. I just outed myself as a Traitor To Feminists by using "chicks" didn't I?

*bangs head here*

Re: You dated a white male?

[c3fyn.livejournal.com]

Wauuugh! You used the "C" word!

I slip up and use it now and again, in front of professors. Some of them are not amused.

Yeah, I'm with you on the "it's about a person's choice to do wtf they want to do, and sod off the rest."

Weirdos.

[jamer-31.livejournal.com]

I have so many thoughts it’s hard at work to put a train of thought together. As with any time you are to be given a "choice" the word choice does not mean you are to actually decide for yourself. It means you are to decide that the person telling you that you have a choice is right and follow them with out thinking from then on. This is the problem with most of these types of "groups" they are the same ones that yell freedom of speech when they talk. But will not allow yours because you have the "freedom" to their speech not general speech. The best way to demonstrate this is parent to kid. When you were a child did your parents ever nicely tell you to do something i.e. could you take the trash out? Not really a question is it but then I grew up and my ex wife did the same thing always asking for something to be this or that but never once was it a question. "movements" or "groups" work the same way a question is not a question it is an order and as long as you follow them you will not see it as anything but a question. Wow if this makes no sense I apologize as I wrote it over the last hour with a lot of interruptions. lol so yeah

[geekmom.livejournal.com]

I saw Gloria Steinem speak, and she had nothing but positive things to say about women who chose to be homemakers. So tell the critics to put that in their pipe and smoke it.

[professormass.livejournal.com]

Anybody who tries to include me in their self-defined group, and then castigate me for not living up to their idea of what that means, is a dumbass whom I promptly ignore.

The most obvious example are pagans. I will self-identify as a pagan, for lack of a better word, and then get told I'm not.

Therefore, I summarily ignore the people who call themselves 'pagan' and then tell me I can't be. They are in the Dumbass File.

Also, your story was quite a touching 'coming of age' thing. I liked it.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU for commenting on the story. I was beginning to think nobody had read it. Or, worse, read and hated it. =b

[professormass.livejournal.com]

Sorry it took me so long. Been a busy-ish day, and I wanted to give it a full read before commenting.

The ending made me laugh out loud.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

No sweat. =)

True ending. rorschachsix was the lucky recipient of all two quarts.

[rorschachsix.livejournal.com]

I didn't feel the need to comment since I was there... Not for the pokey part, but the aftermath. :)

[starstraf.livejournal.com]

I tried to goto one of the local pagan coffee's when I moved to town and got told that I obviously wasn't a "real" pagan because a "real" pagan could not date a Catholic let alone live with them, so they informed me I would never make it past the coffee screening with their group. I let them know they didn't make it past my "Make peace with religion of origin" screening and left.

[skyflame.livejournal.com]

Your comments remind me a lot of my mom's views on feminism, actually. She took ten years off to raise my younger brother and me before re-entering the workforce as a secretary, slowly worked her way up the ladder, and now is a facilities manager in Phoenix. She's certainly been on both sides of the equation.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_mac_/]

Heya! Thanks for posting the piercing story, it was great to read it again. Brings back lots of memories of you hearing you talk funny while we hung out at work together.

Feminism

[caitlin-storm.livejournal.com]

Why does there have to be a label on something that pertains to how you choose to live your life. Those that we choose to share our fabulous selves with will never label us. They have no need to. It is only the people that do not know us who have to categorize us to try to make our round selves fit into their designated square hole. Remember, most people fear that which is unknown. If they can't *label* you and fit you into their narrow field of vision, you are an unknown. But, truly, does anyone's opinion of you matter unles you allow it? I think you are truly a remarkable soul and enjoy your company. And I don't have to label you to do it....... 8 )

[starstraf.livejournal.com]

I'm so proud of my self for actually reading all the way thru you piercing experience. For some reason piercing squicks me - yeap the girl with 4 tats and planning on getting more - I doubt if my ears weren't already pierced if I would even do that.

I am not a feminist, only because the first group of women that used that as a lable were bitter seperatist lesbians who were so mean and cruel to a young bisexual seeking community and support that I will always tie the two together. Though most of my friends identify as feminists. And I think that the ultimate equality is for anyone regardless of gender to be able to make the choices they want to make. If anyone of either gender wants to be a homemaker then they should be able to do so, or a stay at home parent, or a collared domestic, or a fast track career person.