clevermanka: default (bodytipping)
clevermanka ([personal profile] clevermanka) wrote2008-10-21 09:09 am
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Free expression

Yesterday I had a brief exchange with someone on someone else's LJ that made me think about our tendency to think for other people. OK, and I needed to rant about it a little bit.

It's becoming sadly commonplace for others to legislate (or shame) adults into behaviors that are believed to be "for their own good." Smoking bans, helmet laws, the "war" on drugs...and those are just the big legal issues. The list goes on to include even the most petty things like those ridiculous black blinders that our local Dillon's grocery store puts over the cover of Cosmopolitan.

We need to protect people from themselves and their worst base instincts, right? Adults shouldn't be allowed to decide what is and isn't appropriate activity. And if something is legal (in most counties), like, oh, say...a woman taking her clothes off for money...well, that woman should be made to feel bad for doing it, right? And if another woman has the audacity to say that her friend should have the right to take her clothes off for money, that woman should be shown the error of her ways, right? Goodness knows she shouldn't have a right to her own opinion, much less the right to do what she wants to with her body. She should most certainly be told that oppression is wrong (and directed to a helpful Wikipedia article in case she's uncertain about a definition of oppression).

Many years ago, I read a book called Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do. It helped form my opinions on some major issues that I'd sort of waffled about. It also formed my opinion that everyone has a right to their opinion (even if I disagree with it--which I often do). In the exchange I mentioned at the beginning of the post, I preemptively said "it's likely that our opinions differ." Instead of a "Yeah, we totally disagree on this one. I think..." response, it was implied that I'm wrong! wrong! wrong! and aren't I ashamed of myself for supporting oppression? Well...why? It's not like I'm advocating drowning puppies, here. I just said I think it's OK for a woman to take off her clothes for cash. I'm not telling other people to be ashamed of their beliefs (unless you're one of those people who believe ketchup is an appropriate seasoning for steak, in which case you should be totally, totally ashamed).

Now, I'm a fairly liberal gal with fairly liberal views--and I use the term "liberal" in the non-political-party sense here. It never fails to amuse/frustrate me that many people who call themselves liberal (meaning Democrat) want to control my actions and castigate my opinions--usually because I'm being too liberal.

A long time ago, my mother (who is anti-abortion) shared with me her opinion on why abortion should not be made illegal: "You can't legislate morality." But people continue to try. And when something isn't illegal (yet), it's common to call in the morality police. It might be legal do something, but you should feel really bad about doing it!

This is terribly rambly, I know, and I do apologize for that--the style, if not the content. I needed to vent about it, but I don't have a lot of time to go back and edit this. If there's confusion, I hope it can get cleared up in the comments.

As a side note: Here's the Feminists for Free Expression website. Until yesterday afternoon, there were only two people on all of LJ who listed Feminists for Free Expression as an LJ interest. I was one of them.

[identity profile] cskippy2000.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 02:31 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree, women shouldn't be made to feel bad about taking their clothes off for money. I don't think I should feel bad about being broke and wanting to see a woman take her clothes off, either. The only thing a person should be made to feel bad about, is living dishonestly. I'm sure if that could be legislated, they wouldn't do it. That's a politician's bread and butter. Even if they did, I'd still want to see you naked. ;)

[identity profile] radcliffe.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 02:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Many years ago now the girlfriend of the boyfriends best friend (ie: two couples went out together we were the two girls) and I used to go around and around about similar things. She just couldn't fathom the fact that I would dye my hair, wear corsets and put on makeup. It was so completely outside her belief system that there was very little wiggle room.

We would go around and round on the "why" of why I would do those things. Was it for myself or others? Was it a societal expectation, or rebellion? What in my childhood would bring me to this place? What in hers put her in a similar life place (we were the same age, dating two friends, running our own businesses) but with such different opinions?

We never did manage to find a median point, there simply wasn't one. We would agree to disagree, and then the next time we were together (especially at a party) she would ask me about it again. I found it completely fascinating when she married the boyfriend. She went with the totally traditional wedding, the dress that was in the window of the fancy bridal store, hair done and makeup on, big diamond ring. To me, that was completely foreign, so far out of my experience that there was no wiggle room- especially for it to be her choice!

Ah, people are absolutely fascinating!

[identity profile] clevermanka.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 02:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I think it's wonderful that you both agreed to disagree. And instead of telling you that you were wrong, she continued to engage you with questions of why--which meant she was thinking about the issues instead of just brushing you off as being stupid or bad or whatever. That sort of interaction is so much nicer and so much more productive than being told (or telling someone else) that an opinion is just flat-out wrong.

[identity profile] clevermanka.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 02:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Har har. Here, I'll meet you halfway.

[identity profile] normalcyispasse.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 02:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Ketchup on steak? That is a travesty.

[identity profile] clevermanka.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 02:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Tell me about it. It's an abomination. Want ketchup on your steak? Order a goddamned hamburger.

[identity profile] slinka.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 02:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Right on.

[identity profile] clevermanka.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 02:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, hon. I can't imagine some of the flack that you get for similar issues. *hug* and *solidarity fist!*

[identity profile] rowangolightly.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 02:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I absolutely agree with you! Especially regarding the catsup on steak issue. *shudder*

It took me a long time to outgrow my narrow socially- conservative upbringing but even as a child, my parents stressed how critical it was to think and reason and allow that my own little opinion might not be the only one. *grin* They were a bit startled when I applied that to the gay & lesbian issue!

Right now I'm on a freedom of speech kick....

Oh and two more things; I'm going right now to change my interests.

And you have a gorgeous body and I so appreciated your amazing dancing the night of the RESCU party and never remembered to tell you so!
Edited 2008-10-21 15:01 (UTC)

[identity profile] rougewench.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 03:01 pm (UTC)(link)
Usually it is in such discussions that one finds exactly how closed minded someone is, no matter what label they apply to themselves. It really doesn't matter what the subject is really...what they are really saying is that anyone who doesn't think like them is "wrong" which is an amazingly self-absorbed viewpoint.

The various issues surrounding women not just having control over their bodies, but opting to exercise said control in are always interesting hot button topics, because the socialization toward "traditional morality" runs so incredibly deep that a great number of people who would like to think themselves all sorts of cool or with it really find that they are not, but even more entertaining is that they lack the ability to recognize that they, themselves, have a wish to control the behavior of others, simply because it falls outside their personal comfort zone (often for reasons they don't particularly recognize).

Humans, no matter their gender, race, philosophical bent, or any other deliminator society uses to categorize people should have the right to do whatever the fuck they want to do with their bodies, so long as said action does not involve physically harming another viable human being. And they should have the ability to exercise that right with the support and protection of the law so that they, themselves are in control of said choices and not forced into such choices through some form of direct exploitation.

But that's just my opinion. Good for you for not pointing and laughing at the other individual, and if you did, I'd love you to point me to the post so that I might point and laugh derisively as well.


D.

[identity profile] jimmy-hollaman.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 03:02 pm (UTC)(link)
its sad that we live in a world that worries more about small stuff and not more on the big things. if a woman takes her clothes off for cash so be it. I have some regulars at work that make their money doing that. Its funny their money does not look any different that any one elses....

[identity profile] clevermanka.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 03:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Freedom of speech has been my major #1 Pet Issue since I was a teenager.

And yay! I'm happy you enjoyed the show. I'm glad I got a chance to dance for a group of people that normally wouldn't be able to catch one of my performances.

[identity profile] slinka.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 03:05 pm (UTC)(link)
My favourite was a guy that had just dumped me told me that "good women don't do that sort of thing". Um, dude, WHY did you date me in the first place? Was I supposed to stop being me for you? It was a smack on the face moment. The logic, it was not there.

[identity profile] clevermanka.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 03:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Nah, no pointing or laughing. I just let her have the last word and walked away. It's not like I'm going to convince her, or even care enough to try. I don't even know who she is! She's the one who felt it necessary to respond to I comment I made to someone else in an LJ post. Can't get much more annoyingly preachy than that, really.

[identity profile] clevermanka.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 03:08 pm (UTC)(link)
their money does not look any different

Love this.

[identity profile] the-themiscyran.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 03:13 pm (UTC)(link)
When I hear of someone attempting to legislate or shame others into a particular social behavior, my first thought tends to be "Why, are you afraid that you will indulge if it's an option?" Blaming the temptation is a lot easier than examining why they might want to do it, or why they think it's "wrong".

Personally, I think the only question that needs to be asked about any behavior is this one: Are all of the engaged parties fully-informed adults participating of their own free will? If that answer is yes, then everyone else needs to butt the hell out.

But ketchup on steak? Ewwwww! That needs to stop immediately!

[identity profile] clevermanka.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 03:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Niiiiiice.

Belly dancers get that a lot when they date Arabic guys. Most guys want them to stop dancing once they're in the relationship. It's not just Arabic guys, either. It happened to a friend of mine whose husband (after like ten years of marriage) told her he didn't like her doing that in public, and that it embarrassed him.

WTF, dudes? Amazing.
Edited 2008-10-21 15:14 (UTC)

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/_mac_/ 2008-10-21 03:14 pm (UTC)(link)
I remember reading the exchange that you referred to and I thought it was way off base. Not only did they play the morality card, they played the race card as well.

And for the record, I'm all for women taking their clothes off (compensated or not) and sometimes I do enjoy ketchup with my steak.

[identity profile] clevermanka.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 03:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Are all of the engaged parties fully-informed adults participating of their own free will? If that answer is yes, then everyone else needs to butt the hell out.

Yes. And stay out!

I'm happy to hear that so far the consensus sides with me on the steak issue.

[identity profile] clevermanka.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 03:16 pm (UTC)(link)
sometimes I do enjoy ketchup with my steak

You are dead to me.

Oh, except I need to come by your house sometime to drop of a present for your wife. This weekend, maybe?

[identity profile] rowangolightly.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 03:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I was nearly numb with tired but your lovely dancing helped revive me. I was just sorry I had no dollar bills; I'd taken my pouch off when I changed and left it in the car.

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/_mac_/ 2008-10-21 03:25 pm (UTC)(link)
We'll be in Branson this weekend.

[identity profile] clevermanka.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 03:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Crap. I suppose you'll be eating steak with ketchup on it while you're there, too. Sicko.

I'll be in touch about the drop-off. No rush.

[identity profile] amjhawk.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 03:44 pm (UTC)(link)
/agree

I've always considered myself an advocate for women's rights and whatnot - but let me say that you've really helped to educate me (and likely many others) and force me to consider what all that may entail re: specific instances and issues.

And here's Starbuck, kicking ass in pyramid.

[identity profile] thebruce.livejournal.com 2008-10-21 03:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Ditto on the Dance at the RESCU shindig. I had to gather my exhausted wits about me in order to think clearly, and the single coherent thought that appeared was "beauty". Brava, and more at every opportunity, please.

We have strikingly similar views on the legislation of common sense, morality and ketchup; I've been told that these are libertarian views, but who cares what box they fall into?

Same on the moral condemnation of those who choose to work with the talents they have; I look upon it another way: We're not supporting oppression, we're rewarding courage. I admire to the point of awe the courage those who stand naked for the entertainment of an audience, regardless of the amount of clothes they're wearing. Gods, the courage that takes!

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