Free expression

[clevermanka]

Yesterday I had a brief exchange with someone on someone else's LJ that made me think about our tendency to think for other people. OK, and I needed to rant about it a little bit.

It's becoming sadly commonplace for others to legislate (or shame) adults into behaviors that are believed to be "for their own good." Smoking bans, helmet laws, the "war" on drugs...and those are just the big legal issues. The list goes on to include even the most petty things like those ridiculous black blinders that our local Dillon's grocery store puts over the cover of Cosmopolitan.

We need to protect people from themselves and their worst base instincts, right? Adults shouldn't be allowed to decide what is and isn't appropriate activity. And if something is legal (in most counties), like, oh, say...a woman taking her clothes off for money...well, that woman should be made to feel bad for doing it, right? And if another woman has the audacity to say that her friend should have the right to take her clothes off for money, that woman should be shown the error of her ways, right? Goodness knows she shouldn't have a right to her own opinion, much less the right to do what she wants to with her body. She should most certainly be told that oppression is wrong (and directed to a helpful Wikipedia article in case she's uncertain about a definition of oppression).

Many years ago, I read a book called Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do. It helped form my opinions on some major issues that I'd sort of waffled about. It also formed my opinion that everyone has a right to their opinion (even if I disagree with it--which I often do). In the exchange I mentioned at the beginning of the post, I preemptively said "it's likely that our opinions differ." Instead of a "Yeah, we totally disagree on this one. I think..." response, it was implied that I'm wrong! wrong! wrong! and aren't I ashamed of myself for supporting oppression? Well...why? It's not like I'm advocating drowning puppies, here. I just said I think it's OK for a woman to take off her clothes for cash. I'm not telling other people to be ashamed of their beliefs (unless you're one of those people who believe ketchup is an appropriate seasoning for steak, in which case you should be totally, totally ashamed).

Now, I'm a fairly liberal gal with fairly liberal views--and I use the term "liberal" in the non-political-party sense here. It never fails to amuse/frustrate me that many people who call themselves liberal (meaning Democrat) want to control my actions and castigate my opinions--usually because I'm being too liberal.

A long time ago, my mother (who is anti-abortion) shared with me her opinion on why abortion should not be made illegal: "You can't legislate morality." But people continue to try. And when something isn't illegal (yet), it's common to call in the morality police. It might be legal do something, but you should feel really bad about doing it!

This is terribly rambly, I know, and I do apologize for that--the style, if not the content. I needed to vent about it, but I don't have a lot of time to go back and edit this. If there's confusion, I hope it can get cleared up in the comments.

As a side note: Here's the Feminists for Free Expression website. Until yesterday afternoon, there were only two people on all of LJ who listed Feminists for Free Expression as an LJ interest. I was one of them.

Comments

[cskippy2000.livejournal.com]

I agree, women shouldn't be made to feel bad about taking their clothes off for money. I don't think I should feel bad about being broke and wanting to see a woman take her clothes off, either. The only thing a person should be made to feel bad about, is living dishonestly. I'm sure if that could be legislated, they wouldn't do it. That's a politician's bread and butter. Even if they did, I'd still want to see you naked. ;)

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Har har. Here, I'll meet you halfway.

[radcliffe.livejournal.com]

Many years ago now the girlfriend of the boyfriends best friend (ie: two couples went out together we were the two girls) and I used to go around and around about similar things. She just couldn't fathom the fact that I would dye my hair, wear corsets and put on makeup. It was so completely outside her belief system that there was very little wiggle room.

We would go around and round on the "why" of why I would do those things. Was it for myself or others? Was it a societal expectation, or rebellion? What in my childhood would bring me to this place? What in hers put her in a similar life place (we were the same age, dating two friends, running our own businesses) but with such different opinions?

We never did manage to find a median point, there simply wasn't one. We would agree to disagree, and then the next time we were together (especially at a party) she would ask me about it again. I found it completely fascinating when she married the boyfriend. She went with the totally traditional wedding, the dress that was in the window of the fancy bridal store, hair done and makeup on, big diamond ring. To me, that was completely foreign, so far out of my experience that there was no wiggle room- especially for it to be her choice!

Ah, people are absolutely fascinating!

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

I think it's wonderful that you both agreed to disagree. And instead of telling you that you were wrong, she continued to engage you with questions of why--which meant she was thinking about the issues instead of just brushing you off as being stupid or bad or whatever. That sort of interaction is so much nicer and so much more productive than being told (or telling someone else) that an opinion is just flat-out wrong.

[normalcyispasse.livejournal.com]

Ketchup on steak? That is a travesty.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Tell me about it. It's an abomination. Want ketchup on your steak? Order a goddamned hamburger.

[slinka.livejournal.com]

Right on.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Oh, hon. I can't imagine some of the flack that you get for similar issues. *hug* and *solidarity fist!*

[rowangolightly.livejournal.com]

I absolutely agree with you! Especially regarding the catsup on steak issue. *shudder*

It took me a long time to outgrow my narrow socially- conservative upbringing but even as a child, my parents stressed how critical it was to think and reason and allow that my own little opinion might not be the only one. *grin* They were a bit startled when I applied that to the gay & lesbian issue!

Right now I'm on a freedom of speech kick....

Oh and two more things; I'm going right now to change my interests.

And you have a gorgeous body and I so appreciated your amazing dancing the night of the RESCU party and never remembered to tell you so!

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Freedom of speech has been my major #1 Pet Issue since I was a teenager.

And yay! I'm happy you enjoyed the show. I'm glad I got a chance to dance for a group of people that normally wouldn't be able to catch one of my performances.

[rougewench.livejournal.com]

Usually it is in such discussions that one finds exactly how closed minded someone is, no matter what label they apply to themselves. It really doesn't matter what the subject is really...what they are really saying is that anyone who doesn't think like them is "wrong" which is an amazingly self-absorbed viewpoint.

The various issues surrounding women not just having control over their bodies, but opting to exercise said control in are always interesting hot button topics, because the socialization toward "traditional morality" runs so incredibly deep that a great number of people who would like to think themselves all sorts of cool or with it really find that they are not, but even more entertaining is that they lack the ability to recognize that they, themselves, have a wish to control the behavior of others, simply because it falls outside their personal comfort zone (often for reasons they don't particularly recognize).

Humans, no matter their gender, race, philosophical bent, or any other deliminator society uses to categorize people should have the right to do whatever the fuck they want to do with their bodies, so long as said action does not involve physically harming another viable human being. And they should have the ability to exercise that right with the support and protection of the law so that they, themselves are in control of said choices and not forced into such choices through some form of direct exploitation.

But that's just my opinion. Good for you for not pointing and laughing at the other individual, and if you did, I'd love you to point me to the post so that I might point and laugh derisively as well.


D.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Nah, no pointing or laughing. I just let her have the last word and walked away. It's not like I'm going to convince her, or even care enough to try. I don't even know who she is! She's the one who felt it necessary to respond to I comment I made to someone else in an LJ post. Can't get much more annoyingly preachy than that, really.

[jimmy-hollaman.livejournal.com]

its sad that we live in a world that worries more about small stuff and not more on the big things. if a woman takes her clothes off for cash so be it. I have some regulars at work that make their money doing that. Its funny their money does not look any different that any one elses....

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

their money does not look any different

Love this.

[the-themiscyran.livejournal.com]

When I hear of someone attempting to legislate or shame others into a particular social behavior, my first thought tends to be "Why, are you afraid that you will indulge if it's an option?" Blaming the temptation is a lot easier than examining why they might want to do it, or why they think it's "wrong".

Personally, I think the only question that needs to be asked about any behavior is this one: Are all of the engaged parties fully-informed adults participating of their own free will? If that answer is yes, then everyone else needs to butt the hell out.

But ketchup on steak? Ewwwww! That needs to stop immediately!

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Are all of the engaged parties fully-informed adults participating of their own free will? If that answer is yes, then everyone else needs to butt the hell out.

Yes. And stay out!

I'm happy to hear that so far the consensus sides with me on the steak issue.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_mac_/]

I remember reading the exchange that you referred to and I thought it was way off base. Not only did they play the morality card, they played the race card as well.

And for the record, I'm all for women taking their clothes off (compensated or not) and sometimes I do enjoy ketchup with my steak.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

sometimes I do enjoy ketchup with my steak

You are dead to me.

Oh, except I need to come by your house sometime to drop of a present for your wife. This weekend, maybe?

[amjhawk.livejournal.com]

/agree

I've always considered myself an advocate for women's rights and whatnot - but let me say that you've really helped to educate me (and likely many others) and force me to consider what all that may entail re: specific instances and issues.

And here's Starbuck, kicking ass in pyramid.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Thanks. The people fighting for women's rights were/are really fighting for our rights to choose--and IMO women's rights are humanitarian rights. It's not necessarily a gender thing. We might not always agree with the choices made, but we should take pride in the fact that there is the option of choice.

[thebruce.livejournal.com]

Ditto on the Dance at the RESCU shindig. I had to gather my exhausted wits about me in order to think clearly, and the single coherent thought that appeared was "beauty". Brava, and more at every opportunity, please.

We have strikingly similar views on the legislation of common sense, morality and ketchup; I've been told that these are libertarian views, but who cares what box they fall into?

Same on the moral condemnation of those who choose to work with the talents they have; I look upon it another way: We're not supporting oppression, we're rewarding courage. I admire to the point of awe the courage those who stand naked for the entertainment of an audience, regardless of the amount of clothes they're wearing. Gods, the courage that takes!

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Aw. Thanks. Hurray for another happy audience member! And down with ketchup-steak-eaters!

the courage those who stand naked for the entertainment of an audience

Aren't all entertainers, to some extent, standing naked in front of their audience?

[renniemom.livejournal.com]

I had an interesting discussion with a man at KCRF--a long timer who's played all levels of role and often alongside his wife. He thinks you are an amazing, stunning woman but can't watch you dance. For some reason it sexualizes you in such a way he's uncomfortable. I found it fascinating and we had a nice long chat about it. I didn't change his mind and he didn't change mine. In fact, he often couldn't verbalize his reasons but they were very ingrained in him. If memory serves you were there for the beginning of the conversation and may well remember it.

And ketchup on steak: I grew up in a household where steak was only done if it was shoe leather because Dad won't eat it unless it's "WELL DONE". Mom fixed it on the broiler and the only way to make it palatable was ketchup. I still occasionally cross to the dark side if a piece of steak is particularly tough. Ketchup is a mask.

So it is ketchup or catsup?

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

I think if a person is uncomfortable seeing me in a specific sexualized situation, he has every right not to expose himself to the experience. Gods know the last thing I want is to make a dance performance into something unpleasant for someone. Kudos to him, too, for having the open-mindedness to realize that this is his issue and nobody else's. I know who you're talking about and I tease him about it, but I would never in a million years embarrass, shame, trick, or otherwise force him into watching me dance.

I remember eating ketchup on poorly done (overdone) steak when I was a kid, too. But then my mom learned that good steaks could be purchased at restaurants and we never went back to ketchup-covered shoe leather.

[satyrblade.livejournal.com]

I utterly agree with you... but then, of course, I'm a heterosexual male of European ancestry, and so the beneficiary of 2000 years of systematic oppression with no right whatsoever to speak on the subject. ;)

Seriously, I'm with you. Oppression can come from extremes of either Liberalism and Conservatism, and the more adamant the ideology, the more oppressive the actions become... for the greater good, of course!

I love that book as well. Even though I disagree - as you do - with some of the author's points and feel he goes on a bit too long about many of them, I still feel that every so-called "patriotic American" (of any ideology) should read it, ponder it, and take it to heart.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

the more adamant the ideology, the more oppressive the actions become

Another wonderful thing my (fairly conservative and Baptist) mother said to me: "Please point out to me if I ever start behaving like a fanatic. Being a fanatic about anything means you've stopped thinking about your beliefs. I never want to be that person."

I <3 my mom.

*gasp*

[lightonthesill.livejournal.com]

Given that I will be taking my clothes off for money this Friday and Saturday. I welcome you and as many people you would shamelessly like to tell to come and support me in my efforts. (So there.)

Details of the event here: http://www.myspace.com/sweetlouisekc

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

You are one of the people I was thinking about when I wrote this. Friday and Saturday, hmm? Let me see what I can do...

FYI: McWilliams put all of his books online for free before his death

[adammaker.livejournal.com]

http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/books/

Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do:
http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/aint/toc.htm

His philosophy of online works:
http://www.mcwilliams.com/philo.htm

It, in part, says:
---
As one explores more closely the sources, inspirations, and antecedents of any creative work, the more it becomes difficult to give full credit to any one person, just as a single letter on a computer screen becomes just dots when examined more and more closely. To credit everyone who contributed anything to a work of art would excessively burden even the sturdiest creation.

Obviously, there must be some protections - creative people have to live and are entitled to a fair return for their labor. What concerns me is that art has now become "intellectual property". It is bought, sold, and litigated over by an anonymous group of bean counters who collectively aren’t creative enough to make a decent pot of baked beans.

So, I throw my intellectual properties onto the net to stimulate or appall, comfort or enrage, entertain or exasperate.
Happy hunting.

Peter McWilliams

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Wow, what a great resource. Thank you!

We are going Friday

[nottygypsy.livejournal.com]

I saw the comments that sparked this post and I can not say I'm surprised at all that this followed. I must say it has both made me think and laugh.
I've had women at the legion come to the festival and they had big issue with the cleavage. Well we've all seen bodices not done well, but really. Professional Cheerleaders, Hooters Girls, Olympic Volleyball players all show way more skin. It is their feelings that make it unacceptable. They are threatened by women who are not afraid to be sexual and attractive. (or sexual and not, in the case of BBS, bad bodice syndrome) So in conclusion I think it is clear that No ONE should put Ketchup on a Steak.

Re: We are going Friday

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

I've had women at the legion come to the festival and they had big issue with the cleavage.

My first question to them would be: Did they like looking at Robin Hood's butt? *cough*

I want to eat a steak and look at naked women on stage! I'll let you know if it looks like I can join you for at least half of that equation on Friday.

Some RahRah, Some Rant.

[adammaker.livejournal.com]

Here is my separate post about what you said, instead of geeking out about how much I love the works of Peter McWilliams. (May he rest in joy and peace...)
-------
First, I'd like to thank you for the included pic of your apparently effective moneymaker. It improved my day. *grin*

Secondly, I'd like to express fervent appreciation for your stand on what I think of as Freedom of Action (barring harm to others).
I was influenced early by that same book, and still have it in both hardcover(for me) and softcover(for lending).
See my prior post about the whole work being online for free.
------
It never fails to irritate me when groups of any stripe or creed tell me what I Can or Cannot do, OR tries to shun or shame me into some (in)action. *GRRRR*
-
To the World at Large:
IF YOU CANNOT LEAD ME BY GLORIOUS OR INSPIRING EXAMPLE, PLEASE FORGET TRYING TO FORCE ME TO YOUR WAYS OR BELIEFS.

Again, a tip of the hat to your post, I'm loving the conversation that it has started.

Re: Some RahRah, Some Rant.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Yay! and yes: Exactly. Also: Miss you!

[kalimeg.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I gave a KC Police chief real grief about trying to shove all of us into not smoking, and with some adroit numbers, made him reverse his no-smoking-allowed position.

I told him it wasn't illegal, and he could not treat it that way.

Someone said I was scary when I argued :)

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Someone said I was scary when I argued

I guess it depends if they're on your side or not, eh? =)

[royal-spice.livejournal.com]

I love this post and the comments it inspired. I also believe that freedom of expression includes freedom of action.

Now, I will join the masses in saying--yay for women taking their clothes off! For money or otherwise!

*grin*

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

I also believe that freedom of expression includes freedom of action.

Yes, but your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.

[dvicci.livejournal.com]

Well said, and not rambly at all. I think I need to pick up that book... sounds fascinating!

I'm witness to yet another relationship falling apart right now. One that I'm really surprised has lasted this long... if for no other reason than the female partner, a practicing counselor and social worker has the clear and obvious opinion that her opinions are infallable, and any that disagree with her are just flat out wrong. There's no discussion with her. There's no discourse. She's not interested in bettering herself, or learning about those she calls her "loved ones". Her interests lie only in changing their minds.

It's sad, really. I'd recommend this book to her based only on knowing you and your recommendation, but though she might need to truly hear it more than most, she'd be the first to rip it apart.

Bah. Good riddance.

Oh. Yet another great post! Couldn't agree more. Do you know any of those women personally that you could recommend? ;)

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

the female partner...has the clear and obvious opinion that her opinions are infallable, and any that disagree with her are just flat out wrong.

Mmm. Yeah. I have some experience with that sort of person, myself.

In fact, I was on a road that direction a long time ago. Luckily I snapped out of it while I was still in my late teens or I probably would've wound up an intolerable, overbearing mess. Thank god I turned it around. Now I'm just a slightly annoying, opinionated mess!

And actually, yes, I can recommend someone! lightonthesill has a burlesque show coming up this weekend:
http://www.myspace.com/sweetlouisekc

[bestill.livejournal.com]

You mean I could get PAID for taking off my clothes? Dang!

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

And you have a really good figure, too!

[starstraf.livejournal.com]

A long time ago, my mother (who is anti-abortion) shared with me her opinion on why abortion should not be made illegal: "You can't legislate morality."

Pooch is much the same way - he is anti-abortion but feels it is his personal / religious view and not something that should be legislated, and even in cases where it is legislated it should be legislated on the most local level (IE a smoking ban in Lawrence is more acceptable then a smoking ban in Kansas and a national smoking ban is right out - but in all cases better to let the market decide ie) let individual stores make their own choices). The amusing thing is that we tend to end up voting the same way but for very different reasons.

It is much more appropriate to force warnings "Danger: Cigarettes cause Death" then to regulate if someone can smoke or not.