clevermanka | I'm pointing to the poison one, again. But oh! Merry Fucking Christmas.

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I'm pointing to the poison one, again. But oh! Merry Fucking Christmas.

This morning I kind of, um, went off in email to someone who is (or maybe, used to be) a fairly good acquaintance. I'm trying to decide if I feel bad about that, and I think the fact that I'm trying to decide if I feel bad pretty much answers my question, and that no, I don't really feel bad about it. At all.

Here's the setup: Mr. B. sent me an email forward (fine, whatever) that is in theory an essay written by Ben Stein.

Honestly, I have my doubts that Ben Stein wrote this. I haven't bothered to look it up, because I really don't care enough to waste the energy doing so. That isn't the point.

The point is that someone I thought I liked and respected would send this to me. Me! I'm not saying I wear my Blinking Neon Atheist Sign all the time (although perhaps I should), but I gave up on organized religion in 1990 and I chucked the whole idea of god or gods-centered spirituality somewhere around 1995. I'm pretty up-front about the fact that I am an atheist. I don't even sit on the Agnostic Fence. I don't think less of people who follow a spiritual path--my parents are Christians, many of my friends follow a spiritual path of some sort, and I don't think less of them at all. It's just not my thing. I don't buy it for myself. But the idea that Mr. B. would think I was an appropriate recipient for this email is just baffling. Because not only does this email basically state that God is Real, but it states that It Is My Fault That The World Sucks because I Have Denied God.

What the fuck?

Here is the email forward:

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.

My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees, Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.

In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Katrina) Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'

In light of recent events... terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves. Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing yet?

Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.

Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us. Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.

My Best Regards, Honestly and respectfully,

Ben Stein

And here is what I wrote back to Mr. B.:

Happy holidays! I hope you and yours are having a safe and happy winter. It seems like those ninety-degree days (when I last saw him) were from a different life.

I was kind of hopeful when I saw you'd sent me an article by Ben Stein. I used to have some respect for him, thinking that he was an old-school republican who believed in personal rights and freedoms and small government. But in the past decade, he's really jumped on the conservative neo-con bandwagon and throwing himself behind an administration that has, in my opinion, damaged our country--perhaps irreparably.

The atheist in me would have at least limited herself to dry heaves if this was written by someone who didn't argue vehemently for the good character of Nixon, G. Gordon Liddy, and the entire Bush family. As it was, I think I threw up in my mouth a little. Katrina was caused by the fact that "God" is "a gentleman" who politely exited the city of sin when asked, and because his protection wasn't there for all those blighted sinners, that's why we still have one of our bright and shining historical landmarks reduced to a fear-riddled ghetto? Nice.

"Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace." Well, yes, but crude, vulgar, and obscene articles are (or at least should be) suppressed in the school and workplace. This is a straw-man argument, comparing apples and oranges. Am I mixing metaphors? Yes. And so is Mr. Stein. Abominably.

I'm sorry, Mr. B., but this is about the worst argument for spiritual beliefs I think I've ever read. I think everyone has the right to believe what they wish and follow what is right for him or herself. But to tell me that the world is going to hell because the world has turned its back on one particular god, and "We reap what we sow" is offensive, cruel, and, in my opinion, appallingly inaccurate. Pointing out how atheist heathens are murdered (Murray O'Hare) and commit suicide (Spock) are gross examples of a vengeful god that I have no desire to connect with--nor anyone who believes these endings to their lives were anything but sad and tragic. Hinting that they were just and fair is most certainly not a seasonal message I would care to spread.

All in all, I found the article sad, horrifying, and a prime example of why people the world over are so hatefully divided. The mentality of "the world is a terrible place because you don't believe in MY GOD" is so dangerous and so sadly unnecessary in a world of a million different paths to truth.

Sincerely,
Miss Red

This morning, I got my atheist ass out early enough to shovel our sidewalk as well as the neighbors' sidewalks to the north and south of us. ~~Ben Stein~~ Whomever wrote this and his like can fucking suck my freezing left tit.

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An eloquent piece of crap.

I liked your response and didn't find it over the top at all. Hopefully your acquaintance has the good manners to be embarrassed by his email.

Thanks. When properly motivated, I rant pretty well.

Part of me is hoping he sent that to me just to get my goat. Because that would be funny. This is just...sad-making.

I write and speak more concisely and effectively when I'm good and pissed off, too.

I don't think you went off too badly at all. In Mr. B's defense, he was forwarding something, but we are not privy to any preface he may have included, and that might change the context. However most of my acquaintances who are fond of forwarding "interesting things" frequently do so without any additional comment or reason added; it's hard to guess their motive sometimes.

I find this forwarded mail to be along the same veins as the "Left Behind" books; a kind of christianist effort to show the world the beauty of what they believe in, only to expose much of the desperate and fear-based foundation for their beliefs.

we are not privy to any preface he may have included, and that might change the context.

I cut and pasted the whole thing. No preface, alas.

christianist effort to show the world the beauty of what they believe in, only to expose much of the desperate and fear-based foundation for their beliefs.

Yes, exactly! That's exactly it. In an attempt to show what a kind, just, and loving god they worship, they expose themselves (and the god they created for themselves) to be vindictive, cruel, and downright mean.

When I saw your comment, I had to scroll back up going "wait, what, whose entry am I reading again?". Please tell me you haven't always been here and that I have just not noticed all this time!

(although I am glad you are here, however long it's been!)

*laugh* No.

chernobylred followed a comment on one of your posts back to me then I followed her home and we've been commenting back and forth for a few days.

I love teh Intarwebz!

Everything was written by Ben Stein until you reach this paragraph: In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

I've already gotten this drivel and did bother to look it up.

Sorry you were an unlucky recipient as well.

What is wrong with people?

I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country.

Dude. I don't know where this idea came from, either. It's not one I have ever heard anywhere but in the midst of conservative Christians--you know, the ones who have been gaining political power in huge, grasping fistfuls since the 1970s. The ones who think that they are being persecuted even as they gain more and more power over other people's personal lives. The vast majority of people I talk to who aren't either devoutly Christian or militantly atheist see America, for better or worse, as a basically Christian country, a country founded on Christian principles and inhabited by a predominantly Christian culture. Whatever I think of that view of America personally, it does seem to be the majority one.

I'm actually really impressed with your response to this email. My own would have been far angrier and likely less coherent.

I'm actually really impressed with your response to this email.

Thanks. I didn't want to completely castigate him...and I'm still hoping against hope that he intended it as a joke. We'll see if he (ever) writes me back. Ha!

No kidding. I can tell you that growing up non-Christian, this country looks pretty darn Christian to me.

Please allow me to say amen to that.

I would encourage you though, to explore Curtisism, the national religion of Curtislavakia. It's a simple faith, weekday services are mostly comprised of making His Most High Potentate's cat purr as loudly as possible. We believe prayers are carried to His Most High Potentate's ears through the rumblings of cat pleasure.

prayers are carried to His Most High Potentate's ears through the rumblings of cat pleasure.

This sounds like a religion I could appreciate.

I can ease your mind a bit about the authorship of this. According to Snopes, only the first four paragraphs were written/spoken by Ben Stein.

The rest of it, including the false claims about Dr. Spock's son committing suicide were added to a massively-forwarded copy of this e-mail, and are not at all attributable to anyone on record (which usually means that someone with no sense and way too much time on their hands wrote the thing).

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/confessions.asp

So your ~~friend~~ acquaintance is indeed guilty, of forwarding yet another piece of Inbox garbage. *That* is a sin, in my eyes.

*That* is a sin, in my eyes.

=D Yes, indeed!

And a Merry Christmas to you and yours, by the way. Hard to believe last time we saw each other we were sweating, eh?

Sitting here in fleece pj's, yes it is quite difficult to imagine. I could use a tiny bit of that heat around here right now, especially if it did not show up on my utility bill next month.

Holiday greetings to you, as well! And a wish that the New Year brings much joy.

Nothing whatsoever to feel bad about in sending that email to your fairly good acquaintance.

D.

Actually, yours is am amazingly thoughtful and rational response. Maybe we should send it all over the web chasing the first argument.

One of the things I often do in response to idiot articles like the first is send my response to all those cc's that inevitably are left on by the perpetrators of religious hate mail.

*g*

You are much more dedicated than I!

Stay safe and warm! Hope your busy-baking helped ease the back pain by now.

Ha! I suspect all the standing around is what makes it scream. I got my dough put into rolls that are in the refrigerator. It was awfully crumbly, even though I cut down the amount of flour I used. I ended up having to toss in a bit of water to make it stickier. Probably should have let the egg whites kind of slither in instead of separating the eggs. :)

Then there is people like me that have no beliefs. I'm not jewish, Not Christian, I'm not (pace another religion here), i'm not even Atheist. I have no beliefs when it comes to religion. I have tried alot of different types of belief and just never found it to be my cup of tea...

Stick to your guns, believe the way you want to after all its in the constitution....

Oh and glad some one else pointed out ben only wrote half of it. I almost think that the second half has a fred Phelps vibe to it. (But i could be wrong....)

glad some one else pointed out ben only wrote half of it.

Eh. Ben Stein lost me when he started his apologist crap for W back in the first term of that embarrassing legacy.

And never fear, darling, I always stick to my guns.

Oh definitely not saying Ben is innocent. I have read and seen some of the other stuff he has said. He seems to be slipping back in to political agenda mode, some thing that i feel takes away alot of peoples humanity.

thats why i like you, you always stick to your guns!

thats why i like you, you always stick to your guns!

Fortunately, I also have the good sense to change weapons when somebody points out to me that I'm using entirely the wrong item for a particular situation.

Howzzat for a metaphor, baby? Boo-yeah.

DAMN, you good!!!

I never agreed with it, but I had respect for his viewpoint until he decided to make himself a creationist propaganda film.

That was a beautiful (thoughtful and reasonable) response. I doubt you have endangered your acquaintanceship; probably he will just need some time to get over his embarrassment for sending the forward in the first place.

I'm going to wait to see if he responds before cluing him into the fact that Snopes disproved this was written by Ben Stein. Not that it changes my argument at all, but it will put another nail in the coffin of his.

"can fucking suck my freezing left tit."

Thanks. You know those times were you say something and think "Yeah. That sounded awesome."

This was one of those times exactly.

I say what everyone above has said!

Figgered you would.

Also: You could have come to shovel this morning, you know. Feel free. Anytime. Srsly.

Also also: The offer about the Journaling Workshop still stands. Just saying. Find a way to get here and I'll cover the rest.

Actually, if that email is 'going off' on someone, you need to adjust your meter :). You seemed to express your position quite rationally.

Have a great holiday break!

At heart, I'm a rational creature. HA! It's probably a contributing factor to my being an atheist.

Seriously, though, it takes a lot to upset me enough to be incoherent or irrational. Sometimes this is not a good thing because it means I can be aloof and distant in emotional situations. But eh. Oh well!

Edited 2008-12-24 17:27 (UTC)

Well said!

Yes, the entire message is sad and small. And Anne Graham can kiss my ass. Like the high horse asswipes that tried to say Katrina hit New Orleans because we allow homosexuality to flourish in our country.
ORLY?!! Most of my gay friends are hardly "flourishing" and most are barely getting by. And of course, that hardly explains the beauty that is San Francisco, now does it?

... and quie frankly IMO, a great deal of the trouble with this country is with those who DO believe what the newspapers say. Or their doctors.

Furthermore, that bit about being "allowed to worship God as we understand Him"? Those final four words are key and sadly maligned. Each should be allowed to worship to their own individual understanding, not the understanding of the one doing the so-called allowing. Even if my understanding of what they might call "God" is in the beauty of knowledge, wisdom and love in each individual human, not in a book of quotes by greedy political supplicants.

Whew. OK. I stop now.

the entire message is sad and small.

Sad and small. Yes. Exactly.

Blargh. As someone who is constantly inundated with right wing uberconservative Christian e-mail forwards from her mother, I completely understand. I did put my foot down the other day and tell her the next time she sends me an e-mail claiming that Obama is the AntiChrist, I would block all of her e-mails, permanently. She knows I voted for and support him. It's completely disrespectful!

That's horrifying. I am so grateful to my sensibly Christian parents. They're sad that I've wandered from the flock, but they never badger me about it.

Of course, I have the best parents evar and I make every effort to recognize the fact on a daily basis.

Edit: They voted for Obama, too. So did my nana. =D

Edited 2008-12-24 18:27 (UTC)

Wow, there's a lot wrong with that. I thought the (false) bit about Dr Spock's son and how all of our children are "savages" were particularly sweet. That's right, my kids are savages since they go to a school that doesn't mention Christmas. Or something. And as a parent I have absolutely no control over their religious upbringing. Only the schools could tell my kids about God. With spanking, since apparently it prevents the suicides, right? Uggggh.

I'd be pissed at anyone who sent me this too, and I'm not an atheist.

It was a complete "bang head here" email.

Have you gotten your confrontational "Merry CHRIST-mas!" yet? That's the reason for the goddamned season, in my opinion.

Thought your response was very well measured and reasonable... far better than my standard "Good day, I have no room for the supernatural in my life. Please don't send me anything else of that sort or I'll block your e-mails" boilerplate response.

Incidentally, from what

c3fyn has told me, the belief that the U.S. is an explicitly atheist nation comes from the need within the Dominionist mindset to believe that they're fighting a battle against their opposite number. If they weren't then, gosh, they'd just be a power elite trying to subjugate the masses. That would be beyond the pale!

Edited because I'm too baby-brained today to be able to post.

the Dominionist mindset to believe that they're fighting a battle against their opposite number.

Well as we all KNOW VERY WELL, the number of DEMONS are IMMEASURABLE so I suppose they're safe with this belief.

Bah.

No, I haven't gotten a "CHRIST-mas" greeting yet. I'm not exactly sure what my response would be in that situation. A kick in the groin, perhaps. ...says the girl with the reindeer antler headband...

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