clevermanka (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
clevermanka) wrote2012-08-10 09:00 am
clevermanka) wrote2012-08-10 09:00 am
Calling it
Via ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
athenaartemis comes this really long but fantastic article about Creeper Dudes and how to deal with them. Basically, zero tolerance, people, and fuck anyone (not in the nice way) who whines about the use of the term "rape culture."
labelleizzy posted a link to this very fine article about how people make all sorts of excuses and accommodations for people who exhibit undesirable personal traits--in this case, misogyny and rape. Please also, if you have time, read the accompanying article which brings up an important issue--the need for us not to just let these things slide, and to call that shit out. Every time.
It's crucial to hound people about this, mercilessly. Don't not talk about it for fear of upsetting people. Don't say that you don't want to bring up a topic because people might find it upsetting. You know what's upsetting? Getting sexually assaulted because not enough people are willing to be loud and obnoxious about the rampant disregard of how women are treated and thought of in our society.
Don't think cultural misogyny (always a fun topic) is a problem? You're wrong. We hate women in our culture. As women, we're even taught to hate ourselves and other women. It's insidious, and it's subtle. Have you called knee push-ups "girly push-ups?" I'm raising my hand here, too, so be honest. I'm working on that. If you see me write or hear me say something along those lines, please call me out of on it. I'm not perfect and I'm not exempt from correction.
At Thursday's CrossFit I smacked a guy down (not one of the coaches) for making a misogynist comment. I called him out on Tuesday for making biased and closed-minded comments to Coach Thomas, so I think I'm sensing some sort of pattern, here. I'm gonna refer to him as J.
Just to set the scene, Tuesday's interaction came about because J was discussing Coach Thomas's decision about getting a full sleeve done. J asked what he was going to get on the other arm and Thomas said that he was leaving the other arm blank, to better show off musculature and definition. J scoffed at that, and commented that "It was all about being committed" and something along the lines of Go Big Or Go Home. I was in the middle of my set of front presses, but I racked my weight, turned to J, and said "I thought tattoos were all about self-expression and doing whatever you wanted with your body." Zing! J mumbled something about my coming to Thomas's defense and I just gave him An Eyebrow.
Yesterday's interaction was a little more upsetting. There were three new women at the WOD, who had just joined the box. Coach Andrew asked if any of us could do unassisted pull-ups and one of them said yes and then proceeded to show off some Really Incredible Strict Pull-Ups. Like, eight of them. In a row. J looked at the other guy doing the 6am WOD and said "Jeez, dude, you should be embarrassed." I turned to J and said "Wait. Are you saying that he should be embarrassed because a girl can do more pull-ups than he can?" J then proceeded to show his true colors by actually saying out loud to me "Now, don't go all women's lib on me." "Well, where would you like me to go?" I asked. He started to splutter something and I followed up with "Because I can certainly think of where I would like to tell you to go."
I am grateful that, even hot and sweaty and at six o'clock in the damn morning, my brain still pulls out the fast comebacks. Thanks, Brain!
To J's credit, when I left after Thursday's WOD, he called out to me "Good job today!"
This morning, we had another exchange where I called him out for saying something about one of the other women at today's WOD (we had six women! SIX!)--I don't remember exactly what he said, but it was something along the lines of "I gotta up my game, because a swimmer does those better than me." I looked at him and said "J, you have got to stop comparing yourself unfavorably to other people. That's no good." He responded with "Don't get all uptight about this stuff," and I replied "Man, I'm not uptight. You're the one throwing out all these negative comparisons."
Maybe he can be taught? At least, taught how to talk when I'm in the box? We'll see. I wish people would understand (and internalize) the fact that any sort of smack talk that puts yourself or another person down by making disparaging comments about someone else hurts everyone. One of the things I like about the coaches (and most of the people at CrossFit) is that they encourage me as an individual. The motivation comes not from a desire to be better than someone else, but from me wanting to be better because I can be better.
We all can be better--and we're not any of us better than anyone else.
athenaartemis comes this really long but fantastic article about Creeper Dudes and how to deal with them. Basically, zero tolerance, people, and fuck anyone (not in the nice way) who whines about the use of the term "rape culture."labelleizzy posted a link to this very fine article about how people make all sorts of excuses and accommodations for people who exhibit undesirable personal traits--in this case, misogyny and rape. Please also, if you have time, read the accompanying article which brings up an important issue--the need for us not to just let these things slide, and to call that shit out. Every time. It's crucial to hound people about this, mercilessly. Don't not talk about it for fear of upsetting people. Don't say that you don't want to bring up a topic because people might find it upsetting. You know what's upsetting? Getting sexually assaulted because not enough people are willing to be loud and obnoxious about the rampant disregard of how women are treated and thought of in our society.
Don't think cultural misogyny (always a fun topic) is a problem? You're wrong. We hate women in our culture. As women, we're even taught to hate ourselves and other women. It's insidious, and it's subtle. Have you called knee push-ups "girly push-ups?" I'm raising my hand here, too, so be honest. I'm working on that. If you see me write or hear me say something along those lines, please call me out of on it. I'm not perfect and I'm not exempt from correction.
At Thursday's CrossFit I smacked a guy down (not one of the coaches) for making a misogynist comment. I called him out on Tuesday for making biased and closed-minded comments to Coach Thomas, so I think I'm sensing some sort of pattern, here. I'm gonna refer to him as J.
Just to set the scene, Tuesday's interaction came about because J was discussing Coach Thomas's decision about getting a full sleeve done. J asked what he was going to get on the other arm and Thomas said that he was leaving the other arm blank, to better show off musculature and definition. J scoffed at that, and commented that "It was all about being committed" and something along the lines of Go Big Or Go Home. I was in the middle of my set of front presses, but I racked my weight, turned to J, and said "I thought tattoos were all about self-expression and doing whatever you wanted with your body." Zing! J mumbled something about my coming to Thomas's defense and I just gave him An Eyebrow.
Yesterday's interaction was a little more upsetting. There were three new women at the WOD, who had just joined the box. Coach Andrew asked if any of us could do unassisted pull-ups and one of them said yes and then proceeded to show off some Really Incredible Strict Pull-Ups. Like, eight of them. In a row. J looked at the other guy doing the 6am WOD and said "Jeez, dude, you should be embarrassed." I turned to J and said "Wait. Are you saying that he should be embarrassed because a girl can do more pull-ups than he can?" J then proceeded to show his true colors by actually saying out loud to me "Now, don't go all women's lib on me." "Well, where would you like me to go?" I asked. He started to splutter something and I followed up with "Because I can certainly think of where I would like to tell you to go."
I am grateful that, even hot and sweaty and at six o'clock in the damn morning, my brain still pulls out the fast comebacks. Thanks, Brain!
To J's credit, when I left after Thursday's WOD, he called out to me "Good job today!"
This morning, we had another exchange where I called him out for saying something about one of the other women at today's WOD (we had six women! SIX!)--I don't remember exactly what he said, but it was something along the lines of "I gotta up my game, because a swimmer does those better than me." I looked at him and said "J, you have got to stop comparing yourself unfavorably to other people. That's no good." He responded with "Don't get all uptight about this stuff," and I replied "Man, I'm not uptight. You're the one throwing out all these negative comparisons."
Maybe he can be taught? At least, taught how to talk when I'm in the box? We'll see. I wish people would understand (and internalize) the fact that any sort of smack talk that puts yourself or another person down by making disparaging comments about someone else hurts everyone. One of the things I like about the coaches (and most of the people at CrossFit) is that they encourage me as an individual. The motivation comes not from a desire to be better than someone else, but from me wanting to be better because I can be better.
We all can be better--and we're not any of us better than anyone else.
no subject
Yeah, it sounds like he's sort of caught in a rut about it-not just misogynystic language, but negative in general. And I think you are approaching the situation correctly-you are telling him to quit ALL the negative talk, not just the woman-directed parts of it.
As for the eyebrow-there's a line that popped up in my head from a Star Trek novel where someone snaps "Don't point that thing at me, Spock; it might be loaded!"
;D
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I don't think that would help. At all. =/
Don't point that thing at me, Spock; it might be loaded!
HA HA HA! Me and Spock's eyebrows are SRS BZNS.
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some thoughts.
I must say that there is a huge segment of athletic culture that is, at its core, about effacing comments, swagger, and smack talk. For some, this actually works as a motivating factor. Tho as I have gained understanding of humans and their interactions Iv'e also come to the conclusion, that this number is much smaller than the culture would like you to believe... Mostly (but not always) it covers or distracts from personal insecurities. What interests me is that it is the default. Almost without variation some sort of shaming is brought to bear on the under performer. The plop-psychologist in me thinks that a more mixed reinforcement strategy would be more effective.
Incidentally, you are also resorting to the shame method for behave.mod as well... I think you have the moral high ground, and your technique is more subtle, but the strategy is the same.
Re: some thoughts.
Thanks!
Re: some thoughts.
I don't think you can approach the situation any other way, nor should you. (maybe there is a cool creative way that I cant think of) I'm being generic, but shaming can actually be a great strategy for getting people to behave themselves. In a gymlike setting, it can motivate harder work. Of coures it does not have to be sexist..
"YOU LIFT LIKE A NON-SPECIFIC GENITAL CLUSTER!!!!"
Re: some thoughts.
I might try that next week. If I need to.
"YOU LIFT LIKE A NON-SPECIFIC GENITAL CLUSTER!!!!"
You have no idea how much I want to say this, now.
Re: some thoughts.
Like, if you were working out with aliens (it must be the '80's).
And you suspected, through a series of careful observations, that they were not trying hard enough, or at least as hard as they could.
Of course they might have a mating ritual that began with this sort of thing. That would be awkward.
Or maybe use words like Ovipositor?
"Stop being an ovipositor and SQUAT!!"
Re: some thoughts.
Then I took a swig from your bottle at the imaginary cocktail party we were at in my head.
I'm having a weird day. Thank you for speaking up and making me think.
Re: some thoughts.
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That is all.
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I think my brain is spinning because the parts are inter-related in interesting ways that aren't immediately apparent. It's like talk that puts somebody in their place, and gets them to change their behavior (and here I mean change their behavior, because the Self that behaves certainly won't be changed by external forces -it just goes underground.) is appropriate in the first case but not second.
Which is something I actually agree with.
So really, this is about discernment. Right about now, I'm making sense to MYSELF. LOL!
Anyhow, I loved this post. Really full of stuff to think about. And a big thumbs-up to YOU for not being a pansy about talking back. I really admire that quality a LOT.
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Exactly! And this is what makes misogyny so horrible. It can seem so benign and harmless, but it's all on a spectrum and it's a slippery fucking slope to go from thinking girls are weak to disrespecting them to not caring about them as people to raping them.
a big thumbs-up to YOU for not being a pansy about talking back
And a big thumbs-up to you for tackling something that made your brain spin! Especially so early in the day! Too many people approach stuff like this with a "Nope can't deal" attitude and never attempt an internal investigation. NO THUMBS-UP FOR THEM.
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And you're welcome!
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I've always got your back in that regard, bb.
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Or something.
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I am so impressed with your snappy comebacks. Just... WOW.
And I'm really glad you say these things, link these things, and write these things. You've got a pretty wide sphere of influence and I'm ecstatic that these are the kinds of things you bring to us. <3
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This issue is sure all over the blogosphere right now, and I have no idea why. It's amazing and interesting and I am proud to be a part of it.
You've got a pretty wide sphere of influence and I'm ecstatic that these are the kinds of things you bring to us.
Wow. Gosh. Thank you and you're welcome!
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FUCK YEAH!
I have never been terribly hesitant about people out on sexism and misogyny, and I have become markedly less so recently, owing to my age and the obvious fact that women's rights are going away. I'm all in.
(I was ranting in a meeting about how every Olympics-themed Google doodle I have seen features a dude, is sexist, and means that we should rename them Google dudles, and that I was going to sue.)
(And sorry for the 6748365748 edits.)
And GOOD ON YOU for your great CF work! ROCK ON!
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Solidarity Fistbump of Feminist Rage