Let me clear my throat

[clevermanka]

mckitterick and I had a good follow-up discussion to yesterday's post about the difference between not caring what people think of you and behaving like an asshole. There is a huge difference between those two things, and it's unfortunately true that people confuse them.

We all know that person who uses honesty as an excuse to say rude things. I believe that this person is failing at being a successful adult. Yes, s/he may do things despite what people think of him/her, but one cannot function successfully in our society if one behaves like a jerk all the time to everyone--even if that behavior is exhibited under the banner of "being honest."

Conveniently, Nerd Fitness has a blog post about social interaction today. Very timely. Check it out.

Behaving in a socially appropriate manner is a skill. A very very very important skill. Yes, I could still do my job if I said everything I thought to every person with whom I work. But making less-than-pleasant comments to people about their abilities or personalities would be a detriment to my effectiveness as a secretary. To be competent at my job, I must take into consideration my behavior in the environment. This has nothing to do with wanting people to like me and everything to do with ensuring that people respect me for being competent and appropriate.

Carried to an extreme, this can also be considered manipulation--giving people what they want to hear in order to get something from them in return. And no, I don't think it's always a bad thing to manipulate people to get what you want or need from them in order to do your job effectively. Very few people don't use subtle manipulative techniques on our friends, family, and co-workers to get what we want.

If you need something from that person working in accounting, you spend an extra five minutes asking her about her grandkids. If you want the barista to make your coffee with care (and maybe an extra dollop of cream), you compliment her on her hair. Yes, this is "being nice," but it's also a way of gaming the system in your favor--manipulation.

Rude people who don't bother with social filters or niceties are rarely respected, no matter how good they might be at their job. There is some forgiveness for this sort of thing in the artistic world, but even then those people are few and far between and need to be very effective at their craft for people to overlook bad behavior.

So there's a quick clarification on that topic before I dive back into applications processing.

Comments

[redheadfae.livejournal.com]

There is indeed a fine line between "not caring what people think" and being seen as an asshole.

I have to work hard at times to be nice, and I'm well aware of it. I can start up a conversation with anyone, anywhere, about anything, but that's not the rub with me. It's once you get to know me, my guard drops and I can be, as I've been told, "as tactful as a tank."
I never mean to hurt feelings or be an asshole, but it happens, and the more I can be aware and fix it when I've screwed up, the better I get at not screwing up in the first place.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

The fact that you're aware of it and you take steps to correct the behavior is unfortunately rare. Your friends appreciate it. =)

[redheadfae.livejournal.com]

And I always appreciate being told when I've stepped over the line. Sometimes I don't take it well, but I always go back and think it over, and hopefully make the proper amends.

Hot-headed, who me?

[siro-gravity.livejournal.com]

Well, sadly, there is not quite as much forgiveness of this sort of thing in the artistic world as you might think. People do business with people and that is true in every field. Artists DEFINITELY get shown because they make the right friends and connections. It doesn't mean that asocial folks won't get shown, because some do. What it means is that you see a lot of mediocre stuff made by people who simply knew how to give a good blowjob...so to speak, of course.

My sister and I have this conversation about social interaction a lot. She and I know how to show interest in others, but find that the interest isn't usually returned. She says, "I ask people how they are but they nearly never ask me about me. They are always happier talking about themselves."

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

there is not quite as much forgiveness of this sort of thing in the artistic world as you might think

I was thinking more along the lines of people who are hugely famous. The rock stars of the art (and writing) world--as well as rock stars, themselves.

[femfataleatron.livejournal.com]

Have you seen that show House?

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

I haven't, but from what I've heard/seen in fandom circles, it sounds right up my alley.

[fairgoldberry.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about something along these lines today.

For much of my life, things have generally worked out OK for me. I happen to run across the bank clerk willing to take the time to find an error in my account and waive the fees, the person who stops to help me when my car breaks down happens to be a shade tree mechanic with a daughter I remind him of and he replaces that fuse for free, the tech support person spends an hour and a half on the phone finding the ticky-box someone at the factory checked by mistake deep in the bowels of my OS.

Along with this is 'people give me things'. Not big things, but things like "the day after my toaster oven catches fire, my neighbor buys a new toaster oven and comes over to ask if I want her old one." It happened a lot more when I was broke, but for several years the Universe would just sort of open up and shift to drop the things and the people I needed into my path. It still happens, but I find myself on the supply side more now, because I am doing pretty well.

One of the things about this, though, is that I can't make USE of that shift if I'm an asshole. If I were rude to the neighbor or threw loud parties, she'd ask someone else first. If I were obnoxious to the waiter, the person looking to pay back a long-ago favor by buying a stranger's lunch wouldn't choose me. If I were nasty to that shade-tree mechanic, he'd thank his stars his daughter had better manners and recommend a towing service.

I've been accused of 'glamouring' people to make them be nice to me and give me things, but the reality is that I use three 'tricks':

1. Look into people's eyes and smile when you meet them. It's old primate programming to form a connection. (I also like to smile at people because it makes me feel cheerful in our interaction)

2. Thank people for the help they provide you, no matter how small it may seem. Positive reinforcement makes them want to help you again. (I like to thank people because my mother raised me to be grateful and polite to others)

3. Never pass up an opportunity to do a favor that costs you nothing. Help someone carry groceries, compliment a friend, tell someone's manager he/she did a great job helping you. These favors build goodwill instead of obligation, so that people 'share' with one another instead of 'paying back'. (I like to do these little favors because people never expect them and it brightens their days)

My reasons for doing these things may or may not be manipulative, but the actions themselves play on our primate and social programming to create an advantage for me, and I benefit from that advantage. I would be incredibly naive to think that I'm 'just lucky' and that how I treat others has nothing to do with the way things work out.

Etiquette tends to work along the lines of what you're describing here. We don't so much have to care what others think of our manners, but we should recognise that those manners provide a social shorthand by which we can tell one another "I would like to get along with you in a social or professional environment regardless of whether I like you or not." And that message is, outside of our friendships, probably the single most important statement people living in community can make to one another.

One thought on "being an asshole" vs "not caring what others think of you." "Not caring what others think of you" tends to mean that you don't care what the consequences of your actions are *for you*. "Being an asshole" is not caring what the consequences of your actions are for other people. I see it as the difference between "I don't care if you get mad and don't want to be my friend any more" and "I don't care if I hurt you."

Much love,
Rowan

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

One thought on "being an asshole" vs "not caring what others think of you." "Not caring what others think of you" tends to mean that you don't care what the consequences of your actions are *for you*. "Being an asshole" is not caring what the consequences of your actions are for other people. I see it as the difference between "I don't care if you get mad and don't want to be my friend any more" and "I don't care if I hurt you."

ON THE NOSE! Yes, this describes it perfectly. Thank you!

[msmitti.livejournal.com]

I find this valuable insight. Thanks for sharing.

[alryssa.livejournal.com]

The debacle on _p I just read suits this topic rather well. And this is before we go into the issue of how such behaviour is observed and responded to when demonstrated by men vs women.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

I've been avoiding _p this week...

[alryssa.livejournal.com]

tl;dr: White person decides the n-word isn't a slur but in fact 'just a word', and then totally can't or rather won't grasp why it isn't remotely equivalent to 'cracker'. Enjoys typing out said n-word repeatedly during conversations with PoC. Gets booted.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

g-r-o-s-s

[alryssa.livejournal.com]

Extremely. :/

[redheadfae.livejournal.com]

There is indeed a fine line between "not caring what people think" and being seen as an asshole.

I have to work hard at times to be nice, and I'm well aware of it. I can start up a conversation with anyone, anywhere, about anything, but that's not the rub with me. It's once you get to know me, my guard drops and I can be, as I've been told, "as tactful as a tank."
I never mean to hurt feelings or be an asshole, but it happens, and the more I can be aware and fix it when I've screwed up, the better I get at not screwing up in the first place.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

The fact that you're aware of it and you take steps to correct the behavior is unfortunately rare. Your friends appreciate it. =)

[redheadfae.livejournal.com]

And I always appreciate being told when I've stepped over the line. Sometimes I don't take it well, but I always go back and think it over, and hopefully make the proper amends.

Hot-headed, who me?

[siro-gravity.livejournal.com]

Well, sadly, there is not quite as much forgiveness of this sort of thing in the artistic world as you might think. People do business with people and that is true in every field. Artists DEFINITELY get shown because they make the right friends and connections. It doesn't mean that asocial folks won't get shown, because some do. What it means is that you see a lot of mediocre stuff made by people who simply knew how to give a good blowjob...so to speak, of course.

My sister and I have this conversation about social interaction a lot. She and I know how to show interest in others, but find that the interest isn't usually returned. She says, "I ask people how they are but they nearly never ask me about me. They are always happier talking about themselves."

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

there is not quite as much forgiveness of this sort of thing in the artistic world as you might think

I was thinking more along the lines of people who are hugely famous. The rock stars of the art (and writing) world--as well as rock stars, themselves.

[femfataleatron.livejournal.com]

Have you seen that show House?

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

I haven't, but from what I've heard/seen in fandom circles, it sounds right up my alley.

[fairgoldberry.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about something along these lines today.

For much of my life, things have generally worked out OK for me. I happen to run across the bank clerk willing to take the time to find an error in my account and waive the fees, the person who stops to help me when my car breaks down happens to be a shade tree mechanic with a daughter I remind him of and he replaces that fuse for free, the tech support person spends an hour and a half on the phone finding the ticky-box someone at the factory checked by mistake deep in the bowels of my OS.

Along with this is 'people give me things'. Not big things, but things like "the day after my toaster oven catches fire, my neighbor buys a new toaster oven and comes over to ask if I want her old one." It happened a lot more when I was broke, but for several years the Universe would just sort of open up and shift to drop the things and the people I needed into my path. It still happens, but I find myself on the supply side more now, because I am doing pretty well.

One of the things about this, though, is that I can't make USE of that shift if I'm an asshole. If I were rude to the neighbor or threw loud parties, she'd ask someone else first. If I were obnoxious to the waiter, the person looking to pay back a long-ago favor by buying a stranger's lunch wouldn't choose me. If I were nasty to that shade-tree mechanic, he'd thank his stars his daughter had better manners and recommend a towing service.

I've been accused of 'glamouring' people to make them be nice to me and give me things, but the reality is that I use three 'tricks':

1. Look into people's eyes and smile when you meet them. It's old primate programming to form a connection. (I also like to smile at people because it makes me feel cheerful in our interaction)

2. Thank people for the help they provide you, no matter how small it may seem. Positive reinforcement makes them want to help you again. (I like to thank people because my mother raised me to be grateful and polite to others)

3. Never pass up an opportunity to do a favor that costs you nothing. Help someone carry groceries, compliment a friend, tell someone's manager he/she did a great job helping you. These favors build goodwill instead of obligation, so that people 'share' with one another instead of 'paying back'. (I like to do these little favors because people never expect them and it brightens their days)

My reasons for doing these things may or may not be manipulative, but the actions themselves play on our primate and social programming to create an advantage for me, and I benefit from that advantage. I would be incredibly naive to think that I'm 'just lucky' and that how I treat others has nothing to do with the way things work out.

Etiquette tends to work along the lines of what you're describing here. We don't so much have to care what others think of our manners, but we should recognise that those manners provide a social shorthand by which we can tell one another "I would like to get along with you in a social or professional environment regardless of whether I like you or not." And that message is, outside of our friendships, probably the single most important statement people living in community can make to one another.

One thought on "being an asshole" vs "not caring what others think of you." "Not caring what others think of you" tends to mean that you don't care what the consequences of your actions are *for you*. "Being an asshole" is not caring what the consequences of your actions are for other people. I see it as the difference between "I don't care if you get mad and don't want to be my friend any more" and "I don't care if I hurt you."

Much love,
Rowan

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

One thought on "being an asshole" vs "not caring what others think of you." "Not caring what others think of you" tends to mean that you don't care what the consequences of your actions are *for you*. "Being an asshole" is not caring what the consequences of your actions are for other people. I see it as the difference between "I don't care if you get mad and don't want to be my friend any more" and "I don't care if I hurt you."

ON THE NOSE! Yes, this describes it perfectly. Thank you!

[msmitti.livejournal.com]

I find this valuable insight. Thanks for sharing.

[alryssa.livejournal.com]

The debacle on _p I just read suits this topic rather well. And this is before we go into the issue of how such behaviour is observed and responded to when demonstrated by men vs women.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

I've been avoiding _p this week...

[alryssa.livejournal.com]

tl;dr: White person decides the n-word isn't a slur but in fact 'just a word', and then totally can't or rather won't grasp why it isn't remotely equivalent to 'cracker'. Enjoys typing out said n-word repeatedly during conversations with PoC. Gets booted.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

g-r-o-s-s

[alryssa.livejournal.com]

Extremely. :/