Thoughts from Tumblr this week

[clevermanka]

Guardian fandom has produced very few bed-sharing fics. Which makes sense because half of the OTP just...doesn't sleep very often. But bed-sharing! so great! I wrote kazoogrrl saying "we need more bed-sharing fic in Guardian" to which she (un)helpfully replied "write it, then. get them in a Canadian Shack" and while I'm not planning to write it, it is a thing swirling in my head now. Because...how???????

STOP USING "WIFE" TO DESCRIBE MEN. Heteronormativity is not a good look, folks. If an actual, real-life, married, gay dude wants to use it to describe himself fine, but fic-writers, please, no. Stop, I'm begging you.

I think a lot of us in Guardian fandom really fuckin' love to pick and poke at the scabs and bruises of our FEELS. I mean this show really brings the angst. Even when I don't start out intending to Bring The Pain, I wind up doing it anyway. Pretty sure the only way I'm capable of writing even marginally angst-free Shen Wei (even if the story isn't from his pov for godssake) is if I do my own post-canon fix-it fic.

Hey maybe I can combine it with the bed-sharing. Testing My Limits and all that. =b

Comments

[mecurtin]

Re: "Wife". As I think that gifset demonstrates, it's not (just) heteronormativity, it's misogyny.

BUT this is a problem in Guardian, because in the novel ZYL apparently refers to Shen Wei as his "wife". (I'm not sure if he refers to HIMSELF as "the wife", too)

I don't know enough to say whether this is just that novel, or if it's a BL convention, or if it reflects Chinese gay culture itself.

I agree with you that it's not a good look and I don't like it...but I'm not sure how strict to be about it, given that it reflects at least some of the underlying source.

[clevermanka]

Obviously I can't enforce my will on other people and I'm not going to bring it up in comments on a fic, but I am gonna stop leaving kudos on fics that use it. It just...it really bothers me. Women writing M/M stuff must (imo) be careful about fetishizing gay men. It's important to not let our delight in the characters (and, let's face it, their bodies and overall male-ness) tip us over into objectifying them and stripping them of their humanity/personhood. And (again, imo) when we apply misogynist/heteronormative aspects to those characters (or people, in RPF) we're stripping them of an aspect of their person, their sex or gender, which is (ironically!) one of the reasons we're drawn to them.

Also, I will always stand by my position that just because something is in canon doesn't mean we need to replicate it in fic. Especially if it's something that isn't actually relevant to the plot.

[extrapenguin]

In the novel, it actually counts as a subversion of sorts, since Zhao Yunlan is the bottom but calls Shen Wei "the wife". IDK if he refers to himself as "the wife", or how it relates to BL conventions or Chinese gay culture.

As for how that should affect fic written for the drama: just like everything that happens in the novel but which isn't shown in the drama, it can IMO be safely set aside. (AFAIK novel Zhao Yunlan is much more "sajiao" (bratty?) than drama Zhao Yunlan, and I think this would be part of that, but someone who's actually consumed both canons will probably have a more accurate picture.)

[starandrea]

In the novel, it actually counts as a subversion of sorts, since Zhao Yunlan is the bottom but calls Shen Wei "the wife".

Agreed; it's used as an empowering label (for Zhao Yunlan, who is assumed to be the weaker character in the novel). (For what it's worth, I like to use "wife" for both of them when I write, because Chinese culture as I understand it is much less into labeling than the American one I'm coming from.

As for how that should affect fic written for the drama: just like everything that happens in the novel but which isn't shown in the drama, it can IMO be safely set aside. (AFAIK novel Zhao Yunlan is much more "sajiao" (bratty?) than drama Zhao Yunlan, and I think this would be part of that,

I agree with both! Fic is about interpreting a shared universe, not about recreating it. And Zhao Yunlan is hilariously whiny in the novel, which is tremendously toned down in the drama.

[starandrea]

Aw. I was disappointed to click through and find out that "platonic bed sharing" actually referred to sexualized bed sharing for non-sexual reasons, but I agree that both are fun! ♥

And I agree that using "wife" to disparage "feminine characteristics" is terrible, whether it refers to people who identify as men, women, or other. (I disagree that it's used that way in the Guardian novel, but that's a minor subset of the overall issue.)

[clevermanka]

Exactly. And even if it's not used to disparage, people shouldn't use it. Heteronormativity is still gross, even when it's used ahem, lovingly.

I wonder if my love of the bed-sharing trope is steeped in the fact that my early-college group of friends all used to sleep in a puppy pile and I would occasionally wind up next to one of the people I had a crush on and would lie there for hours, heart pounding, resisting the urge to just...touch their back. or waist. a little bit.

Okay yeah I guess I'm not wondering about that anymore...

[starandrea]

Oops! My bad, I read "bed sharing" and I assumed platonic bed sharing. Terrible. That's not what you said at all, so the disappointment was totally on me!

I agree that heteronomativity is damaging, but I disagree that the use of gender-specific partner* terms is symptomatic of heteronormativity in all cultures. :)

*ETA: Or poly SO! Gah. So many assumptions in all the language we use. ♥

[clevermanka]

So many assumptions! So fun to observe and navigate! Good times! =D

[frith_in_thorns]

Have to say for me bed-sharing comes under either gen cuddling (which I love) or UST (which I'm not really interested in) and in Guardian I'm mostly here for the established relationship feels. So while I have to try *really hard* not to end every single fic I write with the two of them falling asleep together, bed-sharing as a trope just doesn't feel very applicable to my interests in this fandom!

[starandrea]

Perfect icon is perfect!

[clevermanka]

Yeahhhhhhhhh if you're not into UST the bed-sharing trope def wouldn't have much appeal.

Me, though, wow I love a UST-filled slow-burn buildup. Mmmm.

*looks back at my life's parade of obsessive crushes* Okay, yeah, thanks everyone for being here for my therapy session.

[frith_in_thorns]

Weilan is like the second ship in my life I have aggressively cared about and I even so I extreme skim over any sex scenes. I'm here for the emotional bonding and (mainly) the hurt/comfort...

[clevermanka]

I love how fic allows people to serve different audiences. You are so good at the (non-porny) angst!

[naye]

See, I came into fandom with a limited tolerance for "wife" because of the novel translation and the cultural differences and all of that.

And then! I ran out of tolerance! (It really was limited.) And now when I see it I feel a nails-on-chalkboard shiver that I have to work really hard to shake myself out of. Having just spent the day watching behind the scenes stuff from Actual Gay Drama History 3 they use "husband" about both characters and it's so much better. Like. So much.

"Husband" gives me warm happy queer fuzzies. And again, I know about the novel and everything? But that was written in Chinese and we are writing in English and words mean different things and context matters and to me I can't get over how much hearing "wife" used about a man recalls Western heteronormativity and homophobia both.

(Bonus round pet peeve: women calling their actual platonic female friends that they are not married to "wife" to be cute. [further rant about queer marriages being valid deleted for space])

[clevermanka]

Also please feel free to send me any and all bts stuff from History 3 because I am so not over that show.

[naye]

Eheheh. *fistbump*

We watched all the History 3 stuff on my wife's account so I don't have it? But it was an autoplaying YouTube playlist of bts material...

[starandrea]

I am definitely not trying to make a point or be convincing in any way (that's not really my thing!) just genuinely curious, if you're interested in answering:

Bonus round pet peeve: women calling their actual platonic female friends that they are not married to "wife" to be cute.

How do you feel about it if they are romantically involved but not married? Like, if Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan call each other husband in fics where they're not married? Does that feel like erasure, where you're coming from?

[naye]

Oh, women who are in love calling each other "wife" is totally fine and adorable and it's a tragedy that not all those who want to be wives are allowed to be. (This last bit is also part of why I bristle at those women who have no interest in being romantically involved calling each other "wife" to be cute.) But yeah, the pet peeve is specifically for women in platonic friendships who use it.

Likewise I have no objections to Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan referring to each other as "husband" at any stage in their relationship. ♥

[starandrea]

Yay! ♥ That's nice to hear. :)

[forestofglory]

Well Twitter is trying to convince me to write dire panda fic and/or host a dire panda fanworks challenge so I know what you mean. (That's not totally fair I brought it up to begin with)

[clevermanka]

Well if nothing else, you made me google dire panda and I'll always be grateful for that. 😂

[forestofglory]

Excellent! Dire panda's could exist in YOHE!. I would love fic or fanart with dire pandas!

I might do something about this, but I'm going to finish the food project 1st. I watched 36 so only 4 more episodes to go!

[write_out]

BED SHARING FTW!!!

[clevermanka]

YESSSSSSSSSSSS

[jo_lasalle]

I haven't personally seen this in fic, but out of curiosity, is this usually done in a way where one of them calls the other wife and himself the husband? Or are they both calling each other "wife"? Or is it the narrator rather than the character(s)?

[clevermanka]

I've never seen an instance where they call each other "wife" and "husband." It's usually the narrator, or ZYL in close 3rd person (I think I've seen one instance--maybe--of ZYL being referred to as "wife"). It's sometimes preceded by "pretty" which... /o\

[jo_lasalle]

Ah, I see! I admit it's not a hot button of mine (my instinctive reaction is really "... it depends?..." and I'm really speaking from a position of not having seen this myself and what the tone/mood would be) but I can see how it can be! Good luck avoiding it!

[khellekson]

Bed-sharing is hard in GUARDIAN! Notice ZY's too-small bed; and we never even see SW's bed that I can remember. But it's a kind of CHALLENGE ACCEPTED kind of thing, right? 1-2-3. GO.

[clevermanka]

We don't see SW's bed, nope.

And yeah, ngl, I'm kinda intrigued at the idea of how to get them to Canada. And in a bed. A too-small bed. In a shack. You know. Typical stuff.

[kazoogrrl]

I always hate wife and husband for anyone because I'm so averse to marriage that even those terms can sometimes weird me out. BUT THAT'S JUST ME!

Was in our clevermanka that someone mentioned using "joyfriend" as a term for their non-binary dating partner person? I liked that one.

[clevermanka]

JOYFRIEND! I don't remember that but I love it.

[kazoogrrl]

I just started Kim's Convenience, thanks for linking to the gif set. I liked in the first episode when he meets the drag queen, the interaction was so straightforward and sweet.