clevermanka | Sunday Six

Entry tags:

guardian,
writing

Sunday Six

This fic has gone to beta, but I haven't started anything else yet, so:

Shen Wei wordlessly demanded one more, thorough, kiss before pushing himself up and off the bed. He stood, waiting, but Zhao Yunlan couldn't move. It was the first time he'd had a chance to look at Shen Wei's naked body. Even in the dark blue duotone light he was, objectively, stunningly beautiful. The silver-white from the lamps outside outlined the muscles curving over his shoulders, chest, and arms. His belly dipped down into shadow, broken by a dim highlight over his hipbone. Zhao Yunlan managed to prop himself up so he could continue letting his gaze track down slim but solid legs and then, slowly, all the way back up. He'd been with some very pretty people in his time, but Shen Wei actually looked divine, like an ancient god. Which, Zhao Yunlan realized, he kind of was.

I'd like to hear opinions about tagging stuff on AO3 for anyone who wants to weigh in. How much do you tag? What all do you tag? I was pretty stingy with the tags on my first two fics. I know a lot of people tag for every single sex act they put in, but I don't know how or how many people use those. Personally, I don't pay much attention to tags because (luckily) I have very few squicks and the ones I have are easily gleaned (A/B/O is really the only thing I absolutely can't read). The guys do a lot of stuff in this fic (I wanted to give

jo_lasalle as much as I reasonably could, kiss-kiss bb) and I'm just wondering if I should tag every single thing? IDK. Thoughts, please.

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Nghghghghghhhhfffffffff wow.

That is a GORGEOUS description. WOW.

VERY much looking forward to this coming back from beta. :D

As for tagging - I find it a bit annoying when fics list every single sex act happening? If nothing else it can be a distraction - "wait, the tags listed blowjobs, but those haven't happened yet, so are they coming after...?".

And Guardian has a low enough volume of fic that it's entirely possible to read the summaries of all new fics posted, rather than filtering by keyword... Hm.

The kind of tagging I favor for explicit fics gives a hint of the mood and of the fic (PWP/porn with feelings/first time/established relationship/fluff/angst), and includes anything that might be a particular squick or kink (anything related to consent and dominance, but I'd say also anything that sets the tone for the fic - like if there's a lot of praise kink or overstimulation or something?). And then I go back and forth on whether or not to include aspects of the content, and I can never quite decide what is best! So good luck! It's always an experience trying to fit your fic into all of those AO3 boxes.

Thank you! I'm looking forward to getting it back, too!

solo wasn't available for this one, so I'm using a new beta and I'm, idk...nervous? I still have baby-writer nerves I guess.

I find it a bit annoying when fics list every single sex act happening
SAME. It sounds like we use tags (for consumption purposes) in similar ways.

If nothing else it can be a distraction - "wait, the tags listed blowjobs, but those haven't happened yet, so are they coming after...?".

Yeah, I think that's actually the feeling I meant with "spoilery" - it kind of replaces the anticipation of what might happen with a sort of (distracting) meta-level anticipation / gaming things out.

Oooh, I like that bit. Very evocative!

Tagging! While I love some of the conversational tags I see on AO3 (to a point- I'm not interested in paragraphs of them), I think I'm a very basic tagger. That could be fandom-related too; most early Sherlock fic is very simply tagged. If I remember correctly, so many were just tagged Sherlock/John and nothing else, or just something like First Kiss or First Time. I don't remember tags getting super specific for everything that happened. It's much different now- tags for everything!

I've only posted four fics so far and I think I've been pretty basic with my tags. I do like to tag if my fic is Pre or Post Canon, since I think that matters to a lot of Sherlock readers. I haven't even written a kiss yet, just forehead touches and hand-holding (baby steps!), but if I do eventually get around to writing smut, I don't plan to tag for every act. Just First Time, if that's what it is, or Sex or something like that.

I don't need every sex act tagged myself, but I don't mind when they are. Unless it's tagged Blow Job Fic or something like that, if there is sex, I will anticipate the potential for a variety of acts and I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Thank you! The actor who plays Shen Wei is (in my humble but correct opinion) the most beautiful man currently walking the planet but he shows hardly any skin at all in any of his shows, ever, and ughhhhhhhhh I would at least love to see him without a shirt? Once? For like two seconds? sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh So instead I made myself a good time imagining it and brought everyone else along with me on the ride.

I like reading conversational tags but I don't care to produce them. I do that on Tumblr. I like the transient nature of them there.

There are certainly a variety of acts in this! =D

i'm just gonna drop the link to this post here... (caveat: i can't watch the video linked at the top bc it gives me unbearable motts, but the screenshots and gifs and bts pics from other projects are, um, informative).

Oh yeah I'm not touching that video. I hate pranks and ones like that in particular seem very...exploitative? abusive? something I don't care to observe.

DEAR MOTHER OF GOD THOSE SCREENCAPS THO

My tagging modus operandi is that if someone were clicking into the fic based on the tag, would they be satisfied? So e.g. if the point of the fic is blowjobs, I'd tag it as blowjobs. (Also secondarily as warnings, but that's more "Okay, literally 99% of the porn is Top A, so I will tag my fic where B tops as Top B" -type stuff.)

In practice, I flounder about in dismay as I try to tag stuff that isn't porn, since I generally don't write the sort tropefic for which there are convenient tags floating about in the top of the fandom consciousness.

if someone were clicking into the fic based on the tag, would they be satisfied
Oh that's an excellent way to approach it, thank you!

Re: tagging sex acts -- I assume fics with a bunch of sex-act tags are pure porn/erotica and tend to avoid them because that's not really my thing, esp if it's blokes. If your fic *is* pure porn, fair enough! If it isn't, you might be losing readers who aren't there for the shagging (but don't mind stories that happened to have x-rated scenes in them). Then again, you'll get lots of readers who *are* there for the blow jobs, so... :)

My fic (so far anyway) is pretty much pure porn and I did include that in the tags of the two that are posted (one is tagged "Consensual Sex" and the other "Porn With Feelings"). The Ghost Story AU is going to be different, though, so maybe I'll tag that one a little more closely. Thank you for weighing in!

See, Porn With Feelings is a lovely tag :D

(btw I love the phrase "objectively stunningly beautiful" coming from someone so thoroughly unobjective (tho' perhaps accurate) :)

Zhao Yunlan has ZERO CHILL when it comes to Shen Wei. =D

I am now not reading the snippet because I am saving all my anticippppation!!!

I tend to traditionally tag on the very light side, and as a reader, I actually got a little weirded out the first time I saw people tag for specific sex acts, especially the more 'standard' ones. I get it if you want to draw in the five people being into necrophilia watersports or whatever, buuuut... it kind of spoils the discovery of what is actually going to happen?

But I'm also a reader who reads on pairing, rating, and "general vibe" (does this look like a fun story or a sobfest and how is the spelling?), so to me a tag that says "blowjob" is really only ever a spoiler, not something that would draw me in or put me off. (I think.) It might well work differently for others!

(öjklfadöasdfsdföjklasdöjklasdföjklsdöjklasdöjkl)

not reading the snippet because I am saving all my anticippppation
Ahhh! Love how excited you are about it and I really hope it lives up to your expectations. The next time I post about this fic it'll be the announcement that's up on AO3!

I'm also a reader who reads on pairing, rating, and "general vibe"
Same.

I'm relieved that everyone so far is in the "tag lightly" camp...

I didn't even tag for sex pollen on my 520 story, even though the sex pollen tag is probably more advertising than warning and it is totally a sex pollen fic. In that particular case with that particular build-up, it would have felt detracting more than adding to the reading experience. I did go back and forth about that more than usual - but it would never even have occurred to me to tag for "backalley handjob" *G*

NGL, a "backalley handjob" tag for these two would absolutely get me to at least open the fic...if nothing else just to see how they got there =D

Mmmmmmmaaaaybe I'll go back and re-read that fic of yours because mmmmm yes that is A Very Fine Fic Indeed.

I want to make the little pompom emoji in celebration but ever since my laptop impulse purchase, I have not been able to locate the backlash on my keyboard... ^_^;

so to me a tag that says "blowjob" is really only ever a spoiler, not something that would draw me in or put me off
This is actually another thing to keep in mind (that I totally forgot about)! I do definitely tag more on premise/stuff that can be found out in the first bit of the fic and less stuff that's ending spoilers. So AUs (space, soulmates, etc) are tagged, as is the time period. (For one WIP, I even didn't tag the pairings until the fic was done, with an author's note that the pairings would only be tagged after the fic was done. A bunch of people were happy to have gotten on the ride and expressed their appreciation for how I did my rarepair + said they wouldn't have clicked if it had been tagged with the rarepair from the start.) The one caveat is that if I'm writing a bad ending, I might tag that so that I don't get a bunch of people crying in my inbox about the terribad surprise that was the bad ending and they now need ten thousand tissues and will die of dehydration etc.)

if I'm writing a bad ending, I might tag that so that I don't get a bunch of people crying in my inbox about the terribad surprise
Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhh I'm definitely going to tag Ghost Story AU as "major character death" even though it'll have (imo, anyway) a happy ending. It might lose me some readers but no way would I serve that up as a surprise. I'm an emotional sadomasochist but I'm not rude about it. =D

Ahh yeah, the archive warnings (Major Character Death, Rape/Non-Con, Graphic Depictions of Violence, Underage) are their own special category! If the fic contains them, it must be tagged with that warning, or with Choose Not To Warn, as per AO3 policy. (Or, if you have e.g. Rape and Character Death, but want to keep the latter a secret so no spoilers, you could go with Rape/Non-Con + Choose Not to Warn. Or just plain Choose Not to Warn!)

This is actually another thing to keep in mind (that I totally forgot about)! I do definitely tag more on premise/stuff that can be found out in the first bit of the fic and less stuff that's ending spoilers.

Yes, that's totally a factor too. Tagging for premise to me falls under "vibe of the story" and is not something I'd consider a spoiler. think it can be useful to set expecations & mood. (I'm spinning off this because I find it interesting and I have my fifteen minutes' morning computer time, not necessarily because it helps Manka's original question. ^_^) For example, my long WIP, I'd definitely tag "first time" - I mean, I would in general always tag for "first time" because to me that is ADVERTISING MAX, but in a case where I'm writing somewhat out of fandom mainstream and a lot of people would go in expecting an established relationship story because of where it's set in canon, I don't want them to have to reset their entire brain eleven chapters in. AUs, time period, relation to canon (like canon divergence at point X or something) is useful framing. And I'd try to avoid tags that set the wrong frame. (Like tagging something 'time travel' when it might have some time shenanigans but the story isn't about that.)

I also like your point above re "the point of the story". I've said here that I wouldn't tag for sex acts, but I was thinking of stories that are about something larger ("getting together"; "space adventure (that then has porn)") and the sex act in the story happens to be a blowjob. If you're writing a story about "five times Zhao Yunlan put something in his mouth he should or shouldn't have", that might lend itself to different sorts of tags.

"Will this tag add to the reading experience (framing, advertising, warning where appropriate) or detract from it (spoilers, the wrong sort of expectations)?" is IMO a good sort of baseline.

I would in general always tag for "first time" because to me that is ADVERTISING MAX
SAME

five times Zhao Yunlan put something in his mouth he should or shouldn't have
10/10 would read

Oh, lovely!

I'm still new at this so take my thoughts with a grain of salt. But to me when there's a lot of tags and they are mostly sex acts that makes me less likely to read. It feels maybe hmmm... Vogeristic. Like the physical stuff is the point more than the feelings.

Like the physical stuff is the point more than the feelings
This is an excellent point, thank you, and one I hadn't considered. Maybe that's why they turn me off, as well? Like the author was just going through a checklist or something?

You've gotten a lot of really good advice so far: tag for tone/major tropes/main themes, tag if there's a specific kink (because some readers look for those while others avoid), tag for anything special about the fic, tag for warnings (of course), but don't overdo it b/c spoilers.

One I'd add: Tag for Genre. If your fic is fairytale, noir, sci-fi, romance, or something else that goes off-script or is written in a specific style, those tags are both advertising for the uniqueness of your story but also warn people for whom that's not their cuppa.

Personally I enjoy the occasional humorous tag -- so long as they are not overused -- because/if it tells you something about the story and the approach the author has taken. I used "Intentional misuse of peanut butter" as a tag b/c it's funny (the story is funny) and weird (the story is also a bit off the wall), and that tag helps communicate that tone, hopefully, in addition to giving a clue about something that happens in the story.

tl:dr = go with your gut on this. One of the beautiful things about A03 is the ability to go back and add/delete/edit your tags easily, which I have done after thinking about a story for awhile. Sometimes readers will also ask you to tag for triggers, which I am happy to do if asked. Have fun and I'm so glad you're WRITING MOAR! :)

Tagging for genre! Fantastic idea, thank you!

It's so weird to (finally?) be a writer in fandom! So very weird. Rewarding and delightful, don't get me wrong, but I also kinda feel like I'm still playing in someone else's sandbox?

I think most of us feel that way at first. Couple things to keep in mind: creators generally nowadays are happy to share the sandbox so long as we stay in our (fandom) lane. Second, we as creators are reclaiming Story/Cultural Storytelling / Cultural Meaning Making from the corporate place it's been put in for the last hundred years, so yeah, it feels weird. But the sandbox has always been "ours" collectively as humans -- we're just taking it back kinda.

Have fun storming the castle. :)

I wouldn't tag every sex act. I mostly tag the things I think people are likely to search for, such as specific tropes or kinks, and things I think people are likely to be squicked by, again usually specific kinks and difficult themes.

Cool. Thank you for chiming in! I'm glad we're pretty much all in agreement, here!

I try to keep my tags informative without being overwhelming, but what that means in practice...varies a fair bit. (And since 95% of my fic that's actually on AO3 is all one fandom, I don't know what I'd do with my older fandoms.)

A couple of times with smut I've wound up tagging for a variety of sexual things, if only because it was different enough from what I'd usually been writing that I wanted people to have some idea what they were getting into, and to try to cover both the folks who treat tags as warnings and the folks who read them as advertisement. But it wasn't a terrifying wall of tags (and I do find those offputting as a reader).

The kind of tags I enjoy as well as find useful are the ones that convey mood as much as anything else. I don't want the plot spoiled, as a reader, but I like the sorts of tagsets that are enticements and tell you what kind of feel you're going to get.

I like that everyone here is in agreement about mood/tone tags. It's an important thing for me to remember because, you know, EMOTIONS.

I say: only tag things that are important to the point and direction of the fic. If it's a throwaway, someone looking for that will be disappointed.

For example, I didn't tag my DQ/ZYL fic with SW/ZYL even though it was a plot element because it wasn't the primary pairing, and anyone who came to the fic for that pairing would have a right to be pissed. And I didn't tag it voyeurism because the POV character was imagining voyeurism.

Which, btw? was really hot.

Hah! Thanks. What did you decide about tagaging?

Minimal tagging seems to be the consensus of everyone here and my natural inclination, so minimal tagging it is!

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Sunday Six

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