clevermanka | Wednesday Update

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Wednesday Update

From Twitter:
Sweet-sad Weilan hug.
Pure sweet Weilan kissing with SW in casual wear.
Nice compilation vid of various Zhu Yilong roles. If anyone sees this on YouTube, lemme know so I can put it in my Zhu Yilong vid playlist.

Speaking of playlists, I think it's funny how that song has been used twice that I've seen for Zhu Yilong vids and it's on my Ye Zun playlist (which I should probably make available since it's got a reasonable number of songs, now). Note: I would have sworn that was an Imagine Dragons song until I looked for a link.

~~Drama~~ An unfortunate situation prompted some good discussion in Guardian fandom recently.

bonibaru 's post on consent, tagging, and other issues was timely because I'm grappling with how to tag Ghost Story (the most notable one is does the entire fic need a major archive warning for non-con or will a chapter tag suffice). Excellent conversations in

starandrea 's post about writing things and I'm so glad you wound up writing the post, thank you.

xparrot 's thoughts on engaging with fandom are great as well.

I think by the time I have the brain space to make my own response to it everything will have completely died down (wouldn't be the worst outcome), so I'll take just a moment for a public resolution. I will be better about diplomatically pointing out what I see as potentially troubling behavior/statements in my fandom spaces when I see them rather than assume everyone in the fandom is cool with the status quo. Might as well put my thick skin to use somewhere.

Someone contacted me on Monday night about translating my Guardian fics into Russian! I, uh...might've sounded a little deranged with my enthusiastic YES. I've been excited about new Guardian stuff from Russian fans on my Tumblr dash and now someone wants to spend the time and effort translating my fics for them? o_O I'm...just...floored. Wow.

Revising Ghost Story from the top over the next couple days, hope to send the whole fic to beta by this weekend.

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Congrats on the translation request! I've had a few and they always blow me away. ♥

I absolutely love the Ab7sus4 kiss - the colors! The comfy clothes! AHHH.

I will be better about diplomatically pointing out what I see as potentially troubling behavior/statements in my fandom spaces when I see them rather than assume everyone in the fandom is cool with the status quo.
A good resolution. *hugs* And likewise. (Not about the thick skin. Just. The resolution.)

As for tags/warnings, I'm a fan of chapter tags in longer works? Though take this with a grain of salt - I have no triggers, I just operate from a perspective of using tags and warnings to find things I want to read and avoid those I don't. Because if I saw a long fic with one of the AO3 warnings I would assume the warned-for thing was the central theme (or at least an integral part) of the fic. If it's something that can be skipped, chapter notes are more helpful to me - it'll let me know what I can avoid while still engaging the story at large. Especially if your tags or first chapter already mention that there will be more warnings coming.

if I saw a long fic with one of the AO3 warnings I would assume the warned-for thing was the central theme (or at least an integral part) of the fic. If it's something that can be skipped, chapter notes are more helpful to me - it'll let me know what I can avoid while still engaging the story at large.
That's an excellent way to think about it, thank you! I'm adopting that approach, much appreciated.

So Ghost Story will only qualify for, uh...half the major archive warnings instead of three-quarters. Yay?

I mean, you could've gone for all of them! It's an achievement? :D

Also I really am biased, because I had a long fic with non-con elements in one single chapter, and I didn't want to scare people off the fic seeing as that scene was totally skippable. I use the "see end note for warnings" approach, but I didn't mind it in Crimson Lotus where the warnings came up top either. As long as there is something letting readers know what they are walking into, I don't think one way is better than the other.

I mean, you could've gone for all of them! It's an achievement? :D
That'll be the Hannibal fic I've had in my head ever since I watched the show. *laugh-cry emoji*

Another yes to chapter notes as tags change, and overall tags for a larger theme that's overarching to the entire fic.

Thanks for weighing in!

Congrats on your awesome achievement with this NOVEL. Warnings are always tricky, but I'd rec putting them at the fic level. Personally I always look at the warnings at the fic level and then don't even think about checking again for each chapter, and especially as I typically download fics to read offline, I wouldn't even see chapter-level warnings. I have certainly been taken off-guard in the past (but not frequently) :D

Especially with something like non-con, which might mean so many things, it can be helpful to include a longer description in the A/N. The things I would personally be interested in knowing is if the non-con is between the main pairing, if it is explicitly depicted or something that happens off-screen, and if -- I'm not sure how to phrase this exactly -- it's something that is treated as kink or if it's just something that what happens in the plot, and for a longer fic, maybe which chapter for those who wish to skip any direct representation. But probably your beta, who will have read the entire thing, will have good advice :)

I don't know if this is helpful or how representative it is, but this is one reader's POV :)

Warnings are always tricky, but I'd rec putting them at the fic level.
Oh no, now I'm in conflict again. /o\

Already asked my beta about weighing in on it, but could I possibly DM you with a vague description of what happens and you can let me know how you think I should mark it? If you'd be willing to do that, I'd very much appreciate it, but no worries if you'd rather not.

Yes, of course! I'd be more than happy to :)

Typing that up right now, thank you.

Personally I always look at the warnings at the fic level and then don't even think about checking again for each chapter
This is very helpful to know! Do you check the tags for warnings, or just the main AO3 squares? And if there was an author's note in the first chapter, would you read that or skip it?

and especially as I typically download fics to read offline, I wouldn't even see chapter-level warnings.
Wait - chapter notes don't download? I read most of my fic online, but I'm pretty certain I've always had chapter notes in my Kindle! If you don't mind, could you just walk me through what you mean with "chapter-level"?

(I'm really invested in making a good decision for my fic, as have a couple of things I have become aware that I should warn for, but they're of the mild/mentioned in passing type and putting them in the main tags would feel misleading in that they are not at all what the story is dealing with, just something I feel someone might want to know about. So I appreciate your input!)

I read all the bits and bobs :D I look at whatever I'm given -- AO3 squares, tags, A/Ns. But typically I am expecting warnings to be listed in the tags.

Generally warnings and good tagging make it MORE likely I'll read the fic, not less. Because with fic I'm specifically reading to cater to my interests, so I'm looking for in just what ways I might get feels out of something. As I mentioned on boni's fic, sometimes I will read BECAUSE of warnings and content notes, either because it's something that will hit my id, or because it looks like a complex, weighty story. I just like to be emotionally ready to read something, you know? It doesn't mean I'm not going to read. Also, the more an author tags and warns, the more I can see they are a self-aware writer and one I can probably trust to write a better story, you know? Someone who knows what they're doing. It's all around favorable.

re: Chapter notes download, sorry I was maybe confused because OP said "Chapter tag" and maybe that's not even something AO3 does. However, I often don't read chapter notes because I'm immersed in the world of the fic and I have assumed (erroneously, it seems!) that any warnings would have been warned for at the start.

For your fic, one thing you could do is add a tag, "See notes for warnings" or "additional warnings in the notes" or something like that.

Generally warnings and good tagging make it MORE likely I'll read the fic, not less.
I definitely have warnings/tags I hone in on myself sometimes! But yeah, in the context of this story I think it would be a disappointment if I tagged it with what I want to warn for, because it's a passing reference rather than a theme that the story delves into.

But I also appreciate warnings like "there's graphic violence at the end of this chapter, you can skip it if you want to", because sometimes I want to read around that kind of thing rather than through it? And it's more helpful to know exactly where such a scene happens rather than just be aware there is going to be one (or more) at some point... So, lots to ponder!

For your fic, one thing you could do is add a tag, "See notes for warnings" or "additional warnings in the notes" or something like that.
I've only used chapter notes for warnings once, and then I put "This chapter comes with a mild content warning - please see the note at the end for details" at the top. I didn't actually think to tag for added warnings, because it was only the one, but it's a good idea! I went back to see what to add, and AO3 has a "Additional Warnings In Author's Note" tag all ready to go! So thank you - I've added it to Kaleidoscope now, and I think I'll use that system for my WIP as well.

"Additional Warnings In Author's Note" tag
Fantastic!

As I mentioned on boni's fic, sometimes I will read BECAUSE of warnings and content notes, either because it's something that will hit my id, or because it looks like a complex, weighty story. I just like to be emotionally ready to read something, you know? It doesn't mean I'm not going to read. Also, the more an author tags and warns, the more I can see they are a self-aware writer and one I can probably trust to write a better story, you know? Someone who knows what they're doing. It's all around favorable.

Same same same which is why sometimes even when my AO3rdr shows me the little hidey eyeball that says "Hidden for ABO" or whatnot - I sometimes still click to see what it is and who it's by, read the tags and summary - there's a couple of ABO fics in my bookmarks, because I use the tag blacklist to curate my experience but am willing to be flexible and especially all of that what you said about discerning the talent and concern level of an author based on how judicious they are in their tags and their summaries, and letting myself go with my gut, if I'm in the right mood. It amuses me to go scrolling through my own bookmarks and see "Hidden for ABO" and I think fondly, oh yeah, THAT story.

Edited 2019-11-20 23:35 (UTC)

It amuses me to go scrolling through my own bookmarks and see "Hidden for ABO" and I think fondly, oh yeah, THAT story.
I love how we all most of us have THAT story. =D

I need to hide ABO because I have an irrational anger towards them after blundering into one unawares. I'm actually reading a fic right now I keep rechecking the tags because I swear it's going to turn into ABO at any moment.

If you like dubcon sex pollen style fic but actual ABO squicks you (like me), The Sharpest Lives does a fantastic job of staying just this side of ABO while maintaining the biological desperation. I want a sequel to it So Bad.

Thanks, I can do all of those things as long as the ABO stays in it's lane.

No actual ABO! Just, sex pollen turned up to eleven and biologically-driven. Super hot and angsty.

I know you asked asya but I'm chiming in to second: I look at the fic-level tags once and then never again. I read the beginning A/N at the start of a chapter and if they say there's something more spoilery discussed in the A/N at the end, I may or may not jump ahead to read them before continuing on.

Thanks for chiming in! I think (hope?) I have a way to navigate this without marking it (inappropriately imo if I'm honest) with the non-con Major Archive Warning.

I'm the same way as asya to a degree, I think. If I start a WIP (which is rare, but will happen if I know and trust the author not to abandon it, and don't have so much going on that I can't keep the WIP straight) and then just when I'm all attached hit a chapter warning for a hard DNW I feel, idk, kind of betrayed. I have to be selective in my time since it's a finite resource and abandoning a WIP is a terrible feeling. The description in the a/n or the "you can message me if you have any questions and I'm happy to provide guidance at whatever level of spoiling you're comfortable with" are both valid ideas for letting people know, "there's X archive level warning content in this story, but it isn't the main theme, but feel free to pm me for deets". I'm glad you're thinking about these things so deeply.

I'm also going to put the "there is brief mention of non-con in X" information right up front, way before I even post that part.

The last thing I want to do with this story is actually upset someone for all the wrong reasons!

I believe your kindness will be appreciated by the people most likely to be impacted by it <3

Bonibaru's post was really interesting! But my sister (who cares more about both spoilers and content warnings than I do) was reading it over my shoulder and said, "If the warnings are spoilery I'd rather the author warned in the notes rather than at the the top," which made me remember your wondering about tagging Ghost Story.

Since Ghost Story's warning tags would be very spoilery, it might be better to tick "Choose Not to Warn," and then put "Content warnings in notes" (or something along those lines) in the tagset or maybe in the story summary, followed by detailed warnings in the endnotes (with a "warnings contain spoilers" note/tag too, as needed).

Also for Non-con (which I think is the archive warning that gives most people pause), readers might appreciate a "non-con is in chapter x" and a mention of whether it involves one (or more) of the main characters, whether it's past or present, whether it's graphic or fade-to-black, etc.

But I'm not a writer, and my triggers/squicks are all fandom/pairing/character-specific and have nothing in common with the most widely-avoided tropes, so I dunno whether I'm even making sense...

OH MY GOD who thought this fic was a good idea *laugh-cry emoji*

No, that makes sense, and I honestly do appreciate you weighing in. I just...*sigh*

You know what, I'm not even going to worry about this right now. I gotta revise it first! LOL.

Hey, I think it's an amazing idea! Exploring fraught, complicated and morally-ambiguous narratives that would never get told in profic, especially with the frankly-kinda-annoying recent trend of trying to be inoffensive to everyone is one of the reasons I read fanfic in the first place, tbh.

And I don't think you should take all the discussions re: warnings too much to heart? Maybe, just to be on the safe side, add a "and if you have any more doubts, just message me" or something and call it a day. I believe pretty firmly that you ultimately read at your own risk, so as long as an author isn't openly dishonest in their tags/notes/replies to questions, I personally don't get offended if/when a fic goes off in a direction I don't like. Nobody can warn for everything, after all.

Good luck on the edits! 89k is seriously amazing, and you should be really proud of your work!

Thank you, bb!

^^^that is all very sound reasoning. Choose Not To Warn is, in itself, a caution and experienced fandom people will sometimes think to look deeper. I don't know how pervasive the understanding of Choose Not To Warn is among newbies, but the A/N should still catch them I think? If they need to be caught.

One of the things I love about the AO3rdr Chrome extension is that it lets me filter out pairing tags in the blacklist and then hides stories with those tags. It has saved my eyes many times, I am sure.

Thank you for reminding me about the extension! Back when the news first went around there wasn't one for Firefox so I forgot about it, but it seems they have one now.

There's a lot of different ways to warn! If spoilers are an issue, writing a note at the beginning that says the end notes have a spoilery warning is a good compromise. I personally went for "Choose Not to Warn" + Chapter-specific warnings on longer works where it doesn't apply to the full work.

And also, that's so exciting about your fic being translated into another language! *cheers* So glad to see Guardian getting fans in other languages now too.

I think my biggest issue is I definitely DO want to warn for two of the four. It's just the non-con that I'm like ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh about.

asya_ana sent me a very helpful response in a private message that I think will solve the conundrum, yay!

If it's a minor thing then I'd probably not put it in the tags but put it in the Notes. As someone else has said, to me tags are for the *focus* of the fic.

Part of my first-chapter note for Goblin Fruit was "Putting my warnings for the entire story upfront, a bit vaguely (please do ask if you need me to elaborate in more detail): magical drug addiction as the main focus of this fic, self-sabotaging and self-harming behaviour, very dubcon kissing (within established relationship), drinking blood for plot reasons."

(ETA: I added the "(within established relationship)" after posting chapter 1 when someone asked in a comment whether the dubcon kissing was drug-induced infidelity -- since that wasn't at all the impression I'd meant to be giving, it was an easy addition to clarify!)

I did it this way because I wanted people to be aware right from the start that it was going to be a really dark fic, and go into it with that expectation -- if any of those things are a deal-breaker for someone then I'm pretty sure the entire fic is. But I also didn't want to give away when different stuff happened, as I wanted a couple of scenes to mood-flip in a bit of a shocking way, so again having it all at the start meant that I could put those warnings in but hopefully be a bit spoiler-limited. Also "self-sabotaging and self-harming behaviour" covers a RANGE of things in this fic, some of which are rather open to reader interpretation, and I'm not sure I'd agree with other people about which chapters have that and which don't. My tagset had "Extra warnings inside" as one of the tags, and also "Magical Drug Addiction" was a tag because that's the fic focus.

Edited 2019-11-20 18:45 (UTC)

This is pretty much what

asya_ana helped me work out. So good to know someone else thinks this is a good approach. Thank you!

Fab, and sorry for the million edit notifications. I was literally editing AGAIN while you replied, which was to say that tagging for everything is possible with short fic but for long stories if you do that it becomes really clunky, and paradoxically makes it more likely I think that readers will skim over and miss the one they *really* would have wanted to catch!

Gonna be honest that I'm subscribed to GF but waffling on reading it because of addiction topic, for reasons. When it's finished I might pm you for semi spoilery questions because I'm torn: want to read because a) you're a great writer and b) I want to support you - but not sure I can read w/o issue or in wrong state of mind - but also still sometimes want to read - lol. Would that be OK?

Oh, that would be totally fine! I'm always really happy to be pm'd for clarification of stuff. (And you can do that whenever, since the writing of it is already done.)

You can get around the archive warning for noncon if you tag it "choose not to warn", but otherwise, if there's actual noncon in the fic it should be tagged. A more detailed warning in in the notes would definitely help, too, because people can react very differently to different kinds of noncon situations.

(I'm always for more warnings, personally.)

The issue is I DO want to tag it for Death and Violence.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm would you mind if I sent you a message with a copypasta of what I initially sent

asya_ana to see if you agree with her advice?

Feel free! ♥

Sent!

You can tag for Death, Violence and Choose not to Warn if you want? (Not that you have to, but AO3 does allow it?)

I think I've done this myself (I tend to use CNTW with any fic that I'm not sure needs a warning but I'm uncertain enough to be thinking about it.)

You can tag for Death, Violence and Choose not to Warn if you want? (Not that you have to, but AO3 does allow it?)

How ridiculous is it that I don't want to do this simply because it irritates my rational brain because that's not logical? lololollllllllll

But think of the people you will be helping who WANT to read about Death and Violence and will find it through your tags!

I'm definitely tagging it for Death and Violence! Which is why my brain bzzzts at also marking it "Chose Not To Warn" because...I did? For Death and Violence! Hello my mind does not like THIS sort of contradiction.

Ah ok so it's a structural disconnect between the idea of selecting archive warnings that can be filtered on at the top level, and then the ideal of defining a sublevel of tags, which can also be filtered on. I gotcha. I deal with sublevels of data all the time so to me there's no contradiction, because they exist in two separate spaces used differently for filtering :D

Edited 2019-11-21 15:12 (UTC)

I deal with sublevels of data all the time so to me there's no contradiction, because they exist in two separate spaces used differently for filtering
I think it says a lot about me (and my type of logic!brain) that this concept is both unsettling and...vaguely sexy? =D

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