Hello, my name is Lydia and I like sex

[clevermanka]

A recent post on the bellydancing community (it's a locked post, sorry non-members) made reference to the fact that a girl's bellydance teacher said when bellydancing came to North America, "it was turned into something more sexual as opposed to beautiful"--and that's where Cabaret and Tribal styles came from. OK, historical innaccuracies aside, I just have to say what the fucking hell is wrong with people?

I don't have a beef with this girl (and maybe I'm giving her extra slack because her name is Lydia--heh), but boy oh boy would I like to have a few choice words with her dance teacher. What is it with people that they do not admit sex can be beautiful?

ARGH!

And then another girl posted a comment saying she thinks the dance "has always been objectifying women and AS OF LATE it is now becoming more identifiable as art." OK, now this chica I really would like to shake some sense into, but ... I just don't have the energy. I was even more confounded/horrified/angered when I went to her LJ page and there at the top are photos of, I shit you not, HER TITS. Um. I probably shouldn't have, but I commented to her comment with the following:

I was going to just leave it at "hmmmm," but after checking out your LJ page, I have to ask:

Your LJ main page features a photo at the top of your breasts in a low-cut top.

Your AOL IM name is SexyIbiza.

Your Skype name is sweet_lovergirl.

Your website is titled "Yes she is cute."

From this info, I gather that you're obviously proud of your face and figure. For that I would appaud you. I think it kicks ass when women are proud of their bodies. It doesn't happen nearly enough.

But you seem to have some contradictions with the way you present yourself and your disdain for what you see as previous incarnations of popular bellydance objectifying women. I'm curious how you reconcile these two points of view.

I probably should have left this alone, but I really am curious. What makes it OK for you to present yourself as a sexual creature, but not OK for the bellydancers of past years to do the same?

And regarding your last sentence: It hasn't really "always been entertainment for men," you know. If you look at old videos, there are lots of women in the audience, watching and clapping and appearing to enjoy the show just as much as the men. Is it OK for women to appreciate it, but not men? What about if the women are sexually attracted to the dancer? Does that put them into the same category as the men, and chastized for finding the sexual appeal of the dancer enjoyable?

We'll see what comes of that.

I mean, OK, I totally understand and agree with women who don't wish to be seen as nothing more than a hole to fuck. But why do women (and a few men) react so violently against the concept of a woman who enjoys her sexuality--who enjoys being seen as an incarnation of S-E-X? Human beings are sexual creatures, folks! Don't you get it? Some of us really like feeling, looking, and acting sexy.

And the people who want both sides of the fence make me even angrier. Oh, see my pretty face? See my perky boobies? Aren't I hawt? BUT DON'T YOU LOOK AT ME AS A SEX OBJECT YOU DIRTY MOTHERFUCKER OR I'LL RIP YOU A NEW ASSHOLE.

*shakes head*

Kids these days. I swear.

Comments

[chandara.livejournal.com]

You've said it, sista! Nothing more I could possibly add to it! I agree with you 100%!

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

*highfives*

We enlightened sisters gotta stick together.

I like to think most of the problem is just age. Young feminists are rarely comfortable with their own sexuality and the use thereof.

[rowangolightly.livejournal.com]

Ah, but it isn't just age...lots of older feminists weren't/aren't comfortable with their sexuality either. It is very, very sad that in order to fight for 'equal rights' so many feel that they have to disavow enjoyment of their own bodies or of sexual pleasure.

Huh, but I'm preachin' to the choir, here.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Well, initially I put "baby feminists" but I thought that would bring on the whole infantalization issue...

Yes, you do (unfortunately) have a point. Lotsa first-generation feminists out there who are afraid of their bodies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Dworkin).

[aleksie.livejournal.com]

I think it's a complicated issue, and one I can kind of understand. I think a lot feminists comment on a lot of what things are vs. what they could be. For instance, the anti-porn argument. I can see how people can be anti=porn, especially if it is an institute that allows women to be mistreated in its production.

I think a lot of these attitudes stem from women being concerned that they are going to only be worth what's in between their legs. I can't blame women for being afraid of that, but I think we should give humanity a chance that they can view women as more than one thing.

as per Redstripe Adverts

[adammaker.livejournal.com]

BOO - internally conflicted bellydancers
HOORAY - Sex being beautiful!

[redheadfae.livejournal.com]

*grins*
ooh, I sure hope some motherfucker looks at me as a sex object, cos to tell the truth, if I ripped him a new asshole, I'd have a new place to put my toys.

Yah, the whole Sexual Denial issue drives me nuts in bellydance.
Silly twats.

[rowangolightly.livejournal.com]

Ok, I should've have taken a bite of my sandwich before I read your comment....

[redheadfae.livejournal.com]

hee. Happy to make someone chortle.

[rougewench.livejournal.com]

I can well understand your frustration, my dear.

One wonders if sexual objectification would not be so pervasive in Western Culture if sexuality wasn't considered taboo?


D.

[verminiusrex.livejournal.com]

Sex is a beautiful thing, making yourself vulnerable and expressing trust with your partner.

But let's face it, sex may be beautiful but when viewed from the wrong angle, it just isn't very pretty.

ps-just because we as the collective audience think you are damned hot and sexy doesn't mean we don't enjoy the gyrations and jingle jangle of your dancing on an artistic level.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

just because we as the collective audience think you are damned hot and sexy doesn't mean we don't enjoy the gyrations and jingle jangle of your dancing on an artistic level.

Bingo! You got it. People can find something both sexy and artistic at the same time. It's not impossible, although, alas, it seems to be fairly uncommon.

[starstraf.livejournal.com]

and when something is sexy and artistic it can make it more sexy and the fact of that makes it more artistic

IE) Light and Shadow photo (http://www.thelivingcanvas.com/lc/gallery/light/L015.html) (not completely safe for work - naked but 'naught' bits covered)

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's *gorgeous*.

[starstraf.livejournal.com]

even more so since I know the model and at that time she was a mousey hair in bun glasses girl. She really bloomed in her self confidence after seeing Pete's photography of her.

Look thru his gallery sometime - great stuff

[arkhamrefugee.livejournal.com]

So has she deigned to reply?

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Nope.

[arkhamrefugee.livejournal.com]

Figures.

[aleksie.livejournal.com]

For me, the problem with modern day treatment of sexuality is that many people don't realize that if you do a and b you're going to be viewed as c. They end up dumbfounded and pissed when they get called whatever or receive unwanted attention.

I think people need to wake up and realize that their actions, whether they intend it or not, will cause certain responses; sometimes I think the new thing with feminism is making yourself unaccountable and "innocent" when it comes to other people's actions (not saying that you should always take into account what others think and that the way the world work is how it should be.) It's not fair to say that I wear low-cut tops to attract attention, but I can't honestly say I'd be surprised if I got some unwanted attention or people thought I looked hot.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

They end up dumbfounded and pissed when they get called whatever or receive unwanted attention.

Amazing, isn't it? One can only hope that eventually they grow up and come to grips with their desires and actions in a healthy way--rather than becoming bitter and closed-minded.

[arkhamrefugee.livejournal.com]

rather than becoming bitter and closed-minded

And tearing gaping wounds into well-meaning but fully functional heterosexual men who happen to glance over and react as our nature dictates (with an appreciative look NOT a catcall or wolf whistle).

Just to voice my little ole opinion on the matter.

[redheadfae.livejournal.com]

baby, you can shoot an appreciative look my way any day!

[arkhamrefugee.livejournal.com]

First chance I get to do it in person, I will!

[professormass.livejournal.com]

My name is professormass, and I also like sex.

My sex is very artistical, too. :^)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_luaineach/]

But why do women (and a few men) react so violently against the concept of a woman who enjoys her sexuality--who enjoys being seen as an incarnation of S-E-X? Human beings are sexual creatures, folks! Don't you get it? Some of us really like feeling, looking, and acting sexy.

Dead on.

I'll be curious to know how she responds to your comment.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

I'll be amazed if she responds at all.

Why oh why is it so difficult to be a sex-positive feminist??? Argh!!! On one hand, I'm sure my blood pressure and mental well-being are helped by the fact that I'm not freaking repressed all the time, but on the other hand I swear stuff like this will drive me to an early grave. =b

[professormass.livejournal.com]

Not only has she not responded, she's also altered her LJ and taken down the aforementioned boobie shot.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

You're kidding???? HA HA HA HA!

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. It still loads the same for me. Are you sure you're looking at the correct journal?

[professormass.livejournal.com]

Her name is Lydia, and she professes to be crazy.

Reload the page. The image says it's been removed from Photobucket.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Oh! oh oh, she's not the girl with the conflicting sexuality issues. She's the girl with the mis- or under-informed teacher. No, the Lydia girl is fine. She just needs better info and a more open-minded teacher.

[professormass.livejournal.com]

Oooooh. Her. 'Kay, yeah. I see the problem. Zoinks.

[green-tara76.livejournal.com]

*applauds you* Since when did art and sex become such exclusive concepts that they can't draw upon each other for inspiration? I bet you have way hotter sex than she does, and are probably a better dancer to boot.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Thanks. =D Although I hate to cast aspersions on someone just because I disagree with their way of thinking, I think anyone who is conflicted or repressed about their sexuality probably doesn't have as enjoyable a sex life as they could. And really, that's a vicious cycle.

[rougewench.livejournal.com]

I'm going to add another comment, as something else going on in my world is making me think further about this dichotomy. I think, that at some level, the feminists you describe here find frustration in the differences in how certain men handle a woman displaying her sexuality openly.

Unfortunately, a large portion of the repressed sexuality in Western culture leads to denigrative actions on the part of men, when viewing a woman in a sexual light (this would be the more negative experiences we face when "playing whores" at faire), in that men (and women) will treat women who behave in a sexual light extremely poorly or at worse in an abusive fashion.

Hence, the pendulum swings far in reaction. Any response is lumped in with inappropriate response.

It's like this. When you dress and dance, you are indeed displaying yourself in a certain light and are indeed embodying sexuality. But it is done in recognition of certain boundaries (just as it is when we do something similar at faire). You're dress and actions do not grant license for poor behavior on the part of your audience, even if you do expect your audience to react in accordance with the behavior being displayed.

It is a sad thing when women cannot distinguish between appropriate and inapporpriate behavior in response to stimulus presented. And I think if sexuality was properly embraced by Western society, the denigrative behavior would lessen, if not cease altogether, because humans would have at least a shot of behaving toward each other in a healthy manner at that level.


D.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on everything--except it's not just Western society. Not by a long shot.

[rougewench.livejournal.com]

Indeed, you're right. I don't know if there are many societies that actually manage healthy relations between the sexes/approaches to sexuality generally.


D.

[redheadfae.livejournal.com]

Maybe only the bonobos monkeys, and they're all over the map with sexuality!
*grin*

[apocalypticbob.livejournal.com]

Ok. I'm a woman, and I freely admit to being aroused while watching bellydancers. Is it because of the sensuous movements, or because I find the grace and dedication required to bellydance well impressive, and tend to be attracted to people with skills I respect?

Does it matter?

Does it make me a lech?

I don't think so, but maybe I'm way off.

Enjoying the sexuality of an art form isn't bad, if you do so respectfully. Assuming that a dancer will sleep with you, or treating them like an exotic dancer would not be appropriate.

Just my two cents.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Let me say--and this is just my OWN personal feelings on the matter (although I bet roya_spirit and chandara are in the same boat with me)--if I'm doing a slow, slinky, sultry number and the audience members who are sexually attracted to women aren't getting a little wet down there? I need to hang up my hip scarf and find a different hobby.

[redheadfae.livejournal.com]

Yes, thank you. I see it as you do, if I'm doing a happy dance and people aren't smiling... if I'm doing a sad one, and they aren't moved in some way, then I'm not expressing my art at all. As you, I don't see sensuality as any different.

[thebruce.livejournal.com]

I do not, nor have I ever associated bellydance with sex. Nope...but:

With sensuality... that's as close as I can get, really, in a sex/bellydance paradigm. Bellydance is a very sensual thing.

With beauty... bellydance to me has *always* been about the beauty. Regardless of how attractive the dancer is. When she's dancing, she *is* beauty.

With harmony of body and spirit... for I think that is what brings about the beauty.

With rhythm of life and love of the art... and you can see it in the dreamy-eyed trance-like state of the dancers as the energy moves them.

Yes. It's all about the beauty of the dance. And it is sensual as it can be. Undeniably it sets the stage for an ultimate worship of beauty...some express that as sex. I think we all do. If someone finds something to deny in that, I have no idea what they're about, and I doubt *they* do.

Now I shall go back to the gentlemanly activities of simultaneously enjoying....and remaining silent.

You are indeed beautiful...and not only when you dance :)

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

I do not, nor have I ever associated bellydance with sex.

Sorry to hear that. But different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Bellydance is a very sensual thing

For me, sensuality and sexuality go hand in hand.

[slinka.livejournal.com]

Adults get aroused. Adults wank. I may be biased but I don't think any expression of sexuality is wrong. I think it should be encouraged actually. Adults who limit their sexual world to the status quo are really missing out, in my opinion. And I think that's where the negativity comes from.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Baby, you encourage my sexuality every morning. I've got your calendar on my bedroom wall, ya know. *mwah*

Adults who limit their sexual world to the status quo are really missing out, in my opinion. And I think that's where the negativity comes from.

Yes yes yes. Look at the problems with the priesthood in the Catholic church. You think 99.9% of those issues aren't caused by sexual repression? Sad. Sad and foolish.

[aleksie.livejournal.com]

Are you still following that post? She did reply.

http://community.livejournal.com/bellydancing/1645501.html?thread=15587261#t15587261

Am I nuts or did I not read that right or something? Her info is off, no?

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Um, yeah. You read it right. She's either:
1) Too dense to comprehend her own double-standard
2) Trying to cover for her own double-standard
3) Avoiding the issue

I don't have the time, energy, or inclination to bother responding to someone who won't answer the questions I asked.

[yr410ad.livejournal.com]

Ok, so I am catching up on my LJ exploits. Sue me, beat me, whatever. As you know, I am not the most fastidious of bi-peds. I decided I would go on a hunt, see if I could find this sexually repressed set of people...but got thoroughly distracted by Prosewitch. I'd link to her if I knew how, but I don't...conversation sounds creepily familiar. So you know, I would not like a new asshole as I am not (entirely) objectifying. Witty and gothy, it's just how I like my girls (that was INTENDED to be ironic for of you search for new cubbyholes).