clevermanka | Owning my experience, and nobody else's

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Owning my experience, and nobody else's

I joined Ravelry--an online knitting community a couple months ago (like LJ for knitters) and just recently found a Buddhist knitting group. I've never considered myself a follower of Buddhism, but I appreciate a lot of the teachings of Zen. I also like how Buddhism is so friendly to scientists and atheists. =)

Anyway, one of the members posted this in a thread and I thought it was moving and relevatory.

"One time I went to a weekend retreat with my teacher that included sharing insights with fellow retreatants. She explained the rules, and I can't report them verbatim, but this is close:

You will take turns speaking about your experience. When the bell rings, the first person will speak. When the bell rings a second time, you will thank each other and the second person will speak. You will refrain from commenting on the other person's experience in any way, even to let them know you understand them perfectly, ask them questions, or say how much you relate to their experience because it's just like the time when you, etc.

And then she paused.

And then she said, And when you leave here, I hope you will continue to refrain from commenting on other people's experience. For the rest of your lives.

So now, even when people ask for my opinion about their experience, if I'm in the present moment and not lost in some shit in my head, I ask them to say more. And they always have more to say! And then I ask them for more. And they always have even more! I never need to say anything! They have the information they need already, and what everybody really wants is a willing ear. If I just give them that, they'll get where they're going on their own power. And they think I'm some kind of genius, and I have to point out to them that all I've done is listen and maybe repeat back what they said."

I think I will probably never refrain from asking my friends opinions about issues, but it made me realize two things:

1. My general distaste and dissatisfaction with talking about things/venting to friends really isn't so awful or alien as I used to think. I've always appreciated when people say "call me if you need to talk," but the vast majority of the time, I really have no interest in talking about things just to get them off my chest. It doesn't make me feel better. It generally doesn't help the situation.

2. It's true that only the individual knows what is the right thing for him or herself. S/he might refuse to acknowledge that fact, or refuse to follow the best course of action because the alternative is easier/more fun/provides instant gratification, and s/he might bury that knowledge so deep that it can't be found, so deep not even s/he can find it anymore. But the true understanding of the right thing to do is always there, always calling out to have a chance to make the individual's life better. I cannot assume to know what is the right thing for someone. No one can, but many people do. I have been guilty of that in the past, making assumptions that I know the most intimate interior workings of another person. Thinking I know what is best for another person is arrogant, selfish, and wrong.

As my life continues to change and evolve (as it does, constantly, and inevitably will until I die), I shall do my best to avoid placing my own hopes, expectations, and preferences on other people. I am the only person who knows what is best for me. I am the only person who can decide if something in my life should change. I am the only person who can change me. And that goes for every other person alive today.

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I agree with the basic assumption that everyone can find the "truth" for themselves within themselves. However, sometimes it takes another person to shift one's perspective so that the answer can be seen. And often we're full of enough doubts as to whether or not our truth is really our truth and we need a trusted person to back up our instincts.

The exercise is interesting, though the idea of putting it into practice assumes you WANT to be a good listener.

Thinking I know what is best for another person is arrogant, selfish, and wrong.

I'd amend this to arrogant, selfish, and *sometimes* wrong. But then, that's because I'm pretty much come to terms with being arrogant and selfish. (I could never be a good Buddhist.) With people you know very well, why can't you understand/know what would be good for them? You can't convince me that I don't know what Natalie needs as much (if not better than) what I myself need.

For the record, I appreciate that when I tell you to call or come over if you need us, I know you'll only do it if you do, in fact, NEED us.

You can't convince me that I don't know what Natalie needs as much (if not better than) what I myself need.

It's not my place to convince you of that, is it? =D

sometimes it takes another person to shift one's perspective so that the answer can be seen

I agree completely. Which is what I think the OP was talking about when she said she merely asks questions or repeats things back to the person questioning herself. By laying things out with another person who is truly listening, without an agenda or motive, I think one can come to a truth, without the other person offering a word of advice or opinion.

we're full of enough doubts as to whether or not our truth is really our truth and we need a trusted person to back up our instincts

Yes. I still believe in the value of asking trusted confidantes for a reality check. Definitely.

It's interesting that you post this today. This is slightly different, but I see it along the same line. I've been grappling with a friend who I feel is making poor choices, and I've had conversations with her trying to get her to "see the light." Yesterday I was having conversations with myself about it not being my place to get her to see things my way, or think the same way I do, and wondered why I felt so compelled to do this in the first place. It's because I have more experience in what she is going through and don't want to see her get hurt or go through some of the painful experiences that I've gone through. So while my wanting to do this is out of caring and concern, it still isn't my place to change her mind or assume that I know what will work best for her. She's not me, so making some of the same mistakes I made doesn't mean she'll have the same outcome. And, they are her mistakes to make.

I know that I have the answers (for myself)--whether I trust myself with the answers, or want to believe them is a different story. But for me, I am someone who "has" to talk about things. And that's how I find clarity--not so much from what the listener has to offer, although sometimes that is helpful. It's more from voicing my feelings or what has happened that helps me to see what I need to do.

I feel it's totally up to me if I take a friend's advice, but I am comforted knowing that they are there for support if I want to talk or vent about something. And when my friends open up to me, I see it as a gift that they are sharing something so personal, and trust me with what they are sharing.

I'll have to check out that knitting group. The other day I started searching for more ways to meet people that would be more in tune with my lifestyle & beliefs than some of the groups and people I hang around with now.

Yes, I think your situation with the friend is exactly this sort of circumstance. And I don't think it's out of line to tell someone what you would do in their situation, but only if they specifically ask for that information.

Obviously, we see parts of ourselves reflected in our friends. (Yes, we should respect the differences, but there must be some connection between psyches or else there would be no true relationship--it would just be a aquaintanceship of circumstance.) But it makes complete sense to ask a true friend "What would you in this situation?" Not "What would you do if you were me?" There's a fine line there, but it's a crucial one, I think.

She's not me, so making some of the same mistakes I made doesn't mean she'll have the same outcome. And, they are her mistakes to make.

Exactly.

Well, I know I have been guilty of offering advice (without being asked for it) after a friend has talked about a problem or vented. But I believe I preface it with saying "If this were happening to me, I'd . . . ." (or something similar). I try to be careful not to say "you should do this", but I'm sure I have said that at times.

I think some of that comes from hearing the same person "vent" over and over again about the same thing, and me feeling like they aren't doing anything proactive to change things and I have been feeling like a door mat.

This all reminds me to be more careful about it and to honor my boundaries as well (about them taking up my time if listening to them vent relentlessly is causing problems for me).

It's always been a problem for me not to give advice when friends complain about things to me. I'm wired strangely--I don't really grasp the idea of venting or bitching just for venting or bitching's sake. I understand that it is helpful for people, but it's far removed from my natural way of thinking. So when someone talks to me about a problem, my brain automatically goes into Solution Mode and I try to find an answer. I need to stop doing that, and only offer my own thoughts when specifically requested. And even then, with extreme caution!

L -- I for one have been immensely grateful for you going into Solution Mode more than once. :)

These are interesting ideas to mull over -- I have often found peace in distancing myself from the idea that I am the responsible party for "fixing" someone else's difficulties or problems.

I much prefer the idea that I can fix things, but it isn't usually true.
You on the other hand can fix everything. Which is damn handy. ;)

There is a huge difference between solving things that are covered by my job description and trying to solve things that are 100% not my job--like my friends' personal lives.

You on the other hand can fix everything.

Well, when it comes to my job responsibilities, maybe I can't solve everything. But I like to think I come close. =)

But don't you think one's overall helpfulness and competency in one can translate into better-than-average advice in the other?

Not really, no. It's like the CFO of a company who might not be able to balance his own checkbook.

I think I have a lot of sense--horse sense, common sense, whatever you want to call it--that enables me to work through and around the madness of institutional bureaucracy. And yes, I think that sense can be applied to problems and questions in my own life.

Now, I'm not saying I would never offer advice to someone if they pressed for it. Refusing to do that for a friend would border on rude, IMO--and carries the idea of detachment farther than I care to go. But I would be very careful about the detail and personal bias of any advice I gave. And then, only after close and lengthy listening.

I think you have both hashed out my thoughts on this already, but I can't help chiming in and proving just how very UnZen I am.. LOL

I like the fine line reference, CR, and I think that at times, B, we can't help but be caring and wanting to help another avoid our pain.

For the record, I don't think saying "You should..." counts for a point against us if the questioner asks "What should I do?" *g* .. although the very properly trained listener in me says "NOnono, the correct response is 'You could...'" I'm not always at my best...
AND my fault is that the male side of my brain often offers up solutions instead of listening further.

*sigh* I have to work very hard against that wiring.

EDIT: just posted this to see my thoughts duplicated above!

Edited 2008-04-10 16:25 (UTC)

Yes. I am often guilty of starting in on the solutions before the person is done talking--much less waiting to the point where s/he is ready to ask for advice. It's not a positive habit. At least we're in each other's good company, eh?

I think it's one of those ties that bind us in friendship *g*

In addition to our sparkling wits and keen senses of fashion.

And boozing!

Mmmm hhhmmmm!

*clink*

I need a icon for Drinking.

Bring a camera next time we go to the Lyon or Replay.

You too are cracking me up (I'm not sure about my fashion sense, but I did take a vodka filled lime green flask with a glow-in-the-dark skull sticker on it to a knitting show this past week end where I was a vendor. Does that count? I got a few raised eyebrows when I discretely pulled it out. Although what I think is discreet and what others think is discreet are often 2 different things.)

cracking me up

Yes, we are made of awesome.

It counts in my book!

And yah, my idea of discretion is to pull out my flask in the Country Kitchen and dribble whiskey into my coffee. You rock!

mmmm, peppermint schnapps in my coffee.
(both for medicinal and recreational purposes.)

And my brain being very "female" has been surprised in the past when I've talked to boyfriends about a problem I was having, and they felt like they had to solve my problems. When I asked why they felt I was looking for them to be mister fix-it, they asked why else would I have talked to them about it. Now I'm aware of that, so if I talk to a "guy" about a problem, I always say I'm not expecting them to do anything but listen and be supportive.

But even for me, there are times I want to fix it for the person, even though I know that's not what they are asking.

My biggest frustration with guys is with the ones that I tell "I have a headache" and they respond by telling me all about their screaming migraine! ARGH.

Your response could be (notice how I said "could" and not "should") "Oh, then you understand how much it hurts to hear the screeching of people talking."

I'm one of the guys that needs a signal at the front of the conversation.

If you tell me you need support and sympathy, you can have it in spades.
If you say you need a problem fixed, I'm on it with a big toolset.
-
If you don't clarify, you are most likely going to get "mr. fixit/madscientist/thug-asskicker" and the offer of a cuppa tea.
*grin*

Would you wear a tool belt? :)

yes, and cool goggles.

HAWT!

Reason #437 why I love you so, Adam.

While it took me a few years to get a referential handle on your communication style,
I utterly adore and respect it for both it's uniqueness and utility.
-
Dwelling on the crap and evils of the past only recreates them within your mind and unless there is something NEW to be learned from that re-visitation, there is no need to re-play the emotional hurt.
At that point, is only hurt with no reward.
-
ah well, I have my own individual style to deal with...
I keep hearing that i communicate differently, and my thought is often that I'm just being myself and taking my best shot at life.
Why should I change my base communication style for others?
heh, I often don't.
----
(I am unique, just like everyone else.)

While it took me a few years to get a referential handle on your communication style,
I utterly adore and respect it for both it's uniqueness and utility.

Thank you. I don't know that anyone's every told me I have a unique style of communication.

But it makes sense that those of us who have little to no interest in norming ourselves with society would exchange ideas and thoughts differently than the average human being.

Edited 2008-04-10 19:47 (UTC)

Thank you for this post.

Now I need to imprint it on my brain.

=)

You're welcome!

If I comment, I lose. Right?

Lose...you lose...what? What do you lose? I'm sorry, I don't get it.

Your post is about an experience you had, in which you were told not to comment on other peoples' experiences. It struck me as funny to comment on it about commenting on it; funny only to me, I guess.

My own experience with what you're discussing has been to speak from my own point of view as often as possible. Rather than saying, "You should" or "he is" or other unverifiable assumptions about other people, I simply speak from the I. It's helped me to segregrate myself from the unwanted commentary that I've tended to give in the past, and also freed me from certain control freak tendencies.

Your mileage, of course, may vary, but it's certainly been an interesting exercise for me to avoid using the word "you" as much as possible. And I mean that literally -- I excised it from my vocabulary as much as was feasible.

I find it amazing how much small, seemingly simple changes that like that have thunderous effects on my life and my points of view.

It's helped me to segregrate myself from the unwanted commentary that I've tended to give in the past, and also freed me from certain control freak tendencies.

I think that is a wise approach.

This might have been addressed in an earlier comment, but it's a bit ironic that theirs this space to comment on your experiences...

Anyway, you've always been one of the wisest people I know. And you continue to be. (see Colbert)

I would never tell my friend that I didn't want to hear their opinions. And if I wasn't interested in other thoughts or responses, I would have posted this privately. As I mention to (I think

everflame), I will never stop asking input from my friends. What I hope to do is curtail my inclination to encourage my own personal motivations and desires on others. And also, to listen more than I talk.

Hm. That last one's gonna be tough.

Thank you for the kind compliment. That means a lot to me.

I'm delighted to be reading.

Life is sweet.

There's a book, "Illusions", by Richard Bach, I like it

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Owning my experience, and nobody else's

This is me, breaking the rules already. ;)

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Thankyou for writing.