Creeps

[clevermanka]

There was an article posted to ontd_political today about the word "creep" and how there's this outrage (apparently) from guys who are upset about being (oh noes!) labeled with an unflattering descriptor. I'm gonna be honest--I didn't read the original article (it's from the Jezebel website, which, yeah, enough said), but that's okay because the point of this post I'm making was inspired by this comment, more than the original article.

"Men are given the benefit of the doubt even when grossly transgressing the rules of social appropriateness; women are shamed for minor infractions. If a particular "socially awkward" man can't recognize that some women and girls are socially awkward as well, his problem goes beyond awkwardness and crosses into sexism."

Can I get a hell, yes?

I've observed this time and time again in SF. Those of us who attend SF cons and conferences know the type. He's the nervous guy who's "just trying to be nice" and whom we should pity or forgive because he's a nerd and hasn't been schooled in socially appropriate behavior. He's the annoyingly chatty guy who follows a woman around to different room parties and attempts to insinuate himself in conversations, even after getting shut down numerous times. He's the overbearing guy who stands too close and makes unsettling jokes about a woman's (possibly your) costume. He is, in short, a creep.

But this is the Science Fiction community, and we should be more accepting and understanding of people with social problems. After all, we're all a bunch of nerds in this together, right?

Wrong.

I know that I've been labeled a bitch for not putting up with with socially unacceptable or just plain irritating behavior (from men and women). I'm not going to argue whether someone should or should not spend half an hour whining about their health problems at seven fucking thirty in the morning to everyone in the consuite. I'm not going to argue whether someone should or should not constantly disparage an entire genre of fiction, even after repeated requests to cease. Their behaviors are not the issue here. The issue is that my refusal to participate as an observer to those monologues and my removal of myself from the situations earned me less-than-positive regard from several people at that con. The fact that I displayed a reaction outside the accepted norm resulted in my being labeled with an unflattering descriptor.

To make the inequality even more blatant: I would have removed myself from the latter conversation even sooner were I not in the company of two women who need to protect their reputations because they are writers and can't afford bad press. What is this? Eighth grade? Seriously, people.

So, you know what? Fuck a bunch of that. Fuck the mentality of the guy getting a pass for being a creep because he can't be bothered to learn and internalize appropriate social cues.

I can't force anyone to work on their personality issues, but I can say that if someone chooses to engage in behavior that makes people uncomfortable, that person has no right to bemoan the appellation of "creep." They cannot use a life of social ineptitude to excuse inappropriate behavior. The only way to remove the Creep stigma is to change behavior and stop acting like a creep.

Giving men who behave like creeps the benefit of the doubt while we readily attach "bitch" to women who break social niceties is sexism, plain and simple. I have no room in my life for sexist creeps. I encourage you to seriously consider whether you should, either.

Comments

[nottygypsy.livejournal.com]

Well said.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

I could apply this whole thing to Rennies as well as SF people.

[redheadfae.livejournal.com]

Well said. Have you had the experience of women acting like creeps as well? I have at KCRF one year, and in no way am I excusing their behaving like creeps just because we share the same plumbing design.

*What is this? Eighth grade?*
Yes. Yes, feels that way to me, and I've never understood why it's accepted at cons and RenFests as 'part of the culture'.
Bullshit, I say.

It takes the person being told "you are acting creepy, stop that" and as you said, there are few people willing to stand up and suit up for that role.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Have you had the experience of women acting like creeps as well?

God, yes.

there are few people willing to stand up and suit up for that role

*fistbump*

[nottygypsy.livejournal.com]

I've had more women creeps then men. The ONLY inapproprate physical contact I've dealt with has been women. They are by no means protected by gender from being CREEPS.

[tessagratton.livejournal.com]

Oh yes.

I'd say this should be the first panel you offer at a con, bc it's part of what the community really needs, but we know how that would go.

[etcet.livejournal.com]

She'd be thronged by adoring fans, hounded for autographs, and plied with offers for drinks afterward, prior to being carried through the lobby like a conquering hero?

No, wait, that's my UtopiaCon expressing itself again, isn't it?

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

we know how that would go

Not only would they schedule me at 9am on Sunday morning, I doubt I'd get anyone to serve on the panel with me except those with dissenting opinions. In other words: the Creeps.

[miischelle.livejournal.com]

This whole thing just sort of underlines the fact that social skills are SKILLS that have to be learned.

Yes, some people have a talent for them - but the rest of us have to practice and put up with the consequences of sucking at it some of the time. And learn from out mistakes. And try again.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

...learn from out mistakes. And try again.

Crucial! Yes! People can't just whine "well I tried that" and give up. It's like any other activity you want to improve. If you want to get good, you gotta keep working at it.

[dotar-sojat.livejournal.com]

Amen, sister!

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

*fistbump*

[etcet.livejournal.com]

A-fuckin'-men.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Hallelujah!

[mercaque.livejournal.com]

As the writer of that comment, yes! Well-said! The experience behind my comment was not with SF cons but with movement atheism (where a lot of the same, "we're all smart outcasts in this together" mentality prevails). It's both funny and really sad that pretty much the exact same behaviors are such a problem in both domains, and that people make the same excuses.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Thanks for stopping by and reading!

And FFS yes, I am so tired (as an atheist myself) of religionists thinking that because I don't believe in a god, I have no internal moral/ethical compass, and therefore can (and will) behave like an asshole at will--because they observed this behavior in one other person who claimed to be an atheist.

BAH.

Edit: in re-reading this comment, it sounds like I'm arguing the other side of "wah! this term is unfair because I'm getting painted with their brush!" What I meant to imply in my comment here is that this is exactly why we shouldn't allow this sort of behavior to slide under the guise of social awkwardness in our subcultures.

[sdemory.livejournal.com]

Too true. The "we're all in this together" argument or the "we're outcasts, so we understand" argument's all well and good as long as it doesn't infringe on others. The quiet guy who comes to a party and reads the liner notes to the music that's being played is one thing. Someone who sees being awkward as a means of establishing social dominance, though, is unacceptable. At that point, it becomes a tactic rather than a failing.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Someone who sees being awkward as a means of establishing social dominance, though, is unacceptable

Wow. I've never even thought of it as a dominance tactic, but you are so right. It absolutely can be used that way, and that makes it even more horrible. UGH.

[gretchystretchy.livejournal.com]

Flawless post is flawless.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

*very deep and honored bow*

[alryssa.livejournal.com]

That whole _p post was a mess, what the fuck was with the idiot running_jumping. I was ready to set them on fire.

Also I am really tired of the "But women are also...." derailing. Fuck that. Women just do not have the social and economic or political power to make men's lives miserable as they do for women. And this GQ bitch will not fucking tolerate creepy shit from anyone.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Yeah, running_jumping can run and jump off a bridge, please.

The slight derailing up there was unfortunate, yes. I think I was able to steer it back to topic, though. Maybe? Actually, I think I just brought that thread to a close. =/

[fairgoldberry.livejournal.com]

This hits a recurring theme with me:

Actions Have Consequences.

OK, I'll accept that social awkwardness is a problem. I have it in certain situations, so I understand. But when it interferes with my positive socialization, I see that interference as a consequence of my actions.

I can choose to be around people who don't react negatively, or I can choose to be around people who call me on it. Sometimes I want the former, and sometimes the latter, depending on what I'm looking for in the social. But I have no call to get pissy at the latter for not BEING the former.

The other side of 'actions have consequences' is that if I let people behave a certain way around me without calling them out, I'm teaching them that it's OK to act like that, and reinforcing their belief that 'good people' will put up with whatever bullshit they choose to dish. If I call them out, I may get a name as 'intolerant', but who wrote it where that intolerant is an inherently bad thing to be on the Universal scale of human behaviour? I get a name as someone who's gently intolerant of bullying or boorish behaviour (meaning that I say, "I'm sure you probably aren't aware of how you're being perceived here," instead of leading, with "Have you noticed you're a big bag of fuckhead?"), then I find that my "She's just like that" starts to encompass "She's sensitive to that thing and you probably shouldn't make sexist/racist/hateful/transphobic statements if you want to be her friend and have her respect."

And you know, I'm 100% ok with that.

Love,
Rowan

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

who wrote it where that intolerant is an inherently bad thing to be on the Universal scale of human behaviour?

Certainly not me, and not here. I'm pretty fucking intolerant of a whole lot of shit. And I'm 100% ok with that.

*fistbump*

[annamatic.livejournal.com]

Yes, YES. As an adult, I have no tolerance for people who choose to persist in creepitude after signals (body language or spoken) from the recipient tell them STOP, YOU ARE CREEPING ME THE FUCK OUT, GO AWAY. This includes, for me:

1) standing too close to me in my personal bubble
2) following me talking incessantly
3) talking about inappropriate things too early
4) touching me when I don't know you and I have not initiated the touch first (it's okay to hug me if I hug you, but don't just go hug me out of nowhere)

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

And you just described people I run into every damn year at the local SF con. Ugh. UGH.

[nataliesee.livejournal.com]

This may be my favorite post of yours ever. SO WELL SAID.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

And my heart grew three sizes. Thank you. That's an amazing thing to hear.