clevermanka | This post brought to you by the letter I

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This post brought to you by the letter I

Two nights of decent sleep seems to be my max for now. Went to bed last night at 10-ish. Up at 2:30 this morning. Bummer.

I started to get a migraine yesterday, but managed to fend it off (for the most part) with acupressure and tapping. I can still feel it swirling around back there, though. Ergh. At least today we'll be spared yesterday's weirdo weather (swift weather changes = major migraine trigger for me).

WTF was with those weather shifts? Oh, right. Kansas.

This is a good article on how to spot a misogynist. Thanks,

solan_t!

And this is a good article on how to be a progressive person who still likes problematic things.

After a disastrous attempt to put snaps on Watson's coat pockets, I avoided the sewing room for the rest of the evening. It's a good thing I had an extra foot or so of fabric left. I completely destroyed that poor pocket flap. Yikes. I might have to go to Hancock's for more snaps before I finish.

Wow, I'd love to be able to fall back asleep. Maybe if I just curl up on the couch, here...

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Do you think it's possible for any man to not be somewhat misogynist?

I would argue that to one degree or another all men are misogynist and all women are misandrist.

Heck, I think a lot of women are misogynists.

Do I think it's possible for a man not to be misogynist? Yes. But not in this culture, and not at our current level of emotional evolution.

Similarly, I think everyone is racist as some level. We don't know how not to be racist. Doesn't mean we act like it, and a lot of us actively fight our racist inclinations. But anyone who says s/he "doesn't see race" is full of shit. Heck, there's that study from a couple years ago (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/09/04/see-baby-discriminate.html) that suggested even little babies prefer people of their own color.

It's in our genes/evolution to prefer people like us and dislike The Other. I think that often extends to sex and gender divisions.

Yeah, I mean I try to be as unmisonginist as possible but I'd be lying if I sometimes didn't think "Fuck, bitches drive me fucking insane!"

And, I've yet to have a female friend who didn't say the same/similar things about dudes from time to time.

A-yep.

I don't know that humanity will ever evolve past the fear/hatred of The Other. Some people seem to think/hope we will, though.

mckitterick just got a book called The Empathic Civilization that I'll never get around to reading, but here's a great summary video:

Your efforts to be as non-misogynist as possible are noticed and appreciated. Thank you!

Thank you! I try to be nice to all the cool hoes and bitches I interact with!

Fuck yes those articles. *bookmarks*

Also I will lol at anyone who thinks misandry is really a thing or even vaguely effective at 'turning the tables' on men given how women just do not have the power to actually use it in anything remotely approaching the systematic oppression of misogyny. Not even remotely close, equal to or having any substance thereof, only ever used by men in response to women asking to basically be treated like human fucking beings instead of pieces of meat, bye, thanks for playing.

Misogyny = Women being collectively oppressed by patriarchal structures deeply rooted in society, designed to keep them from having any kind of autonomy over themselves.

Misandry = One man out of millions whining because one woman won't put up with his bullshit.

Heh.

I totally agree with you that misandry isn't an effective means of turning the tables, and it's not even in the same class of oppression. In fact, it's not really an oppression at all, is it? But I do think it's a real thing.

Is it a thing I worry about very much? Not really, no.

Edit: Okay, I just read this post (http://ontd-political.livejournal.com/9613498.html) and now I'm all in your fuck off camp. So. Um. *fistbump*?

sigh

Edited 2012-05-02 13:27 (UTC)

The problem here though is the very word itself connotes a far more powerful concept and assigns far more meaning than actually exists (a good example of gender hatred includes the more extreme versions of Dianic Wicca).

edit: Oh my GOD why won't he just GO AWAY.

Edited 2012-05-02 13:30 (UTC)

The weirdo-radical anti-XY pagan factions were the exact groups I was thinking of when I voiced my opinion that misandry exists.

GMTA!

I got wind of some huge issue involving Z Budapest (sigh) recently, but that was more about a heavy dose of transphobia than anything. But for all that, those groups still have no real power to do much of anything except maybe exclude from gatherings/rituals, which has no larger impact on anyone else whatsoever. And one can argue that safe spaces for women are a necessity, given that it's really a reaction to rampant misogyny in the first place.

Yep. I have no problems with private functions that exclude a group of people. You don't want women at your poker game? Fine. Only POC allowed on your camping trip? Great. Hired party bus open only to trans-people? No problem.

When that exclusion extends to something that even borders on the public sphere, though--nightclubs, for example, or other membership-only organizations--it gets dicey.

I understand and support some gay bars' decisions to have Guys Only nights, though. It must suck to have your cruise location inundated with flocks of annoying drunk chicks. STUPID BACHELORETTE PARTIES RUINING IT FOR EVERYONE.

I AM DYING OF LOVE FOR THAT ARTICLE ABOUT BEING A FAN OF PROBLEMATIC THINGS.

Not only because of it in itself and how I've had that argument ALL THE TIMES, but also because this morning it reminded me that I can't make my complicated novel about characters as realistic as possible completely immune to fucking up on some level and BEING PROBLEMATIC. But it doesn't mean I can't be a good social justice activist (TM).

Well... not really, in the case of women creating safe spaces. And when it comes to the extremist ideals of some, unfortunately their attempts to 'be pure' just means that their own ideas of what constitutes a 'real woman' are funnily enough, directly informed by those self-same patriarchal ideas (must have been born with a uterus, must not be trans*, etc). Which is, surprise, a totally misogynist thing to do. So for it to be labelled as misandry is a big mistake, and as far as I'm concerned, the word and concept is a total logical fallacy that I won't ever buy into. If a marginalised group wants to have a place that excludes people of a marked, privileged majority, there's clearly a need for it, so it's not really a problem IMO.

Yay for article love!

Completely unproblematic characters are boring.

their attempts to 'be pure' just means that their own ideas of what constitutes a 'real woman' are funnily enough, directly informed by those self-same patriarchal ideas...a totally misogynist thing to do

Oooh. Good point. Okay, going to go think thinky thoughts on this for a while...

It's a realisation I just hit upon recently myself while thinking through the Z Budapest nonsense.

In our glorious world of moral/ethical relativism it's SOOOO EASY to call anyone a hypocrite. Simply focus on any detail of a given philosophy and you'll find numerous exceptions, special cases and apologies contained withint that same philosophy. To me this makes the argument that someone is a hypocrite incredibly BORING. Since it's a common, if not the most common rhetorical technique these days, it makes for a terribly uninteresting decade. Even the personal attacks are done with comparatively little style.
Despotic egoism is the only system left without the possibility contradiction... No wonder so many gravitate toward it.
"If I like it it mUst be good!"
Just because you like something or it appeals to you doesn't make it good or right or even desirable. This sort of stance implies that one's taste is more than simply an individual mode for arbitration, and can be applied to the world in general. This is just silly.
One that note: I'm going to lump my misogyny and racism in with my misanthropy and call it good. I don't hate (fill-in-in the -blank ), I just hate you. ...Because of your thumbs, self-consciousness, face, whatever.

I think that as institutions go, I agree with you. There is no institutionalized misandry.

However, it's just as possible for someone to be a misandrist as it is to be a misogynist, and to act out that feeling in his or her power structure.

As chernobylred points out above, there is an inherent reaction to The Other. It can be an attraction or a repulsion, but when someone is visibly and tangibly different from you, you note and react to that. We all have prejudices; we started forming them at birth.

In some pagan spaces, I've noticed that men lack a lot of the same voice, agency, and power as women lack in the larger world. My response to that hasn't been to shout, "REVERSE SEXIST BITCHES!" It has been to think, "How do I want my allies, the men who care about my equality and my rights, to act when they see me in a similar situation? How can I model, in my community, the response to kyriarchy I'd like others to make?"

I think the key, whether it's with misogyny, misandry, racism, or any other form of Othering, is to check your own privilege, tear down *institutional* sources of oppression, and be willing and able to examine your own motives and responses to people who are different from you. Individual Othering may go away, it may stay forever, but if we break down the structures that give it control over others' experiences, and we create structures that foster examination of your own prejudices, then it ceases to be a societal problem and becomes one of etiquette ("Hm, that's a very interesting piece of comedy you've done about your girlfriend's PMS, there, but I find that I must decline further social invitations and cease extending them to you as a result of your conduct this evening").

Rowan

I'm not denying that hatred of men exists, but I do object to the word itself, because it creates a false equivalency that doesn't exist. I'm merely pointing out that trying to equate it in any sense with the sheer level of political and social power that misogyny holds is really not a good idea.

I will point out though, that hatred of women, aka misogyny, is based on an irrational hatred of women; on the other hand, a hatred (and inherent fear) of men that results from said misogyny is a largely rational one based on the institutionalised oppression thereof.

Just because you like something or it appeals to you doesn't make it good or right or even desirable

Hear, hear.

I admit that a lot of the things I like are crappy, problematic, of questionable value, or all of the above.

I'm going to lump my misogyny and racism in with my misanthropy and call it good.

*fistbump*

I (usually, occasionally) like a few people. But humanity in general can suck it as far as I'm concerned.

that is a GREAT video!!!

I loved that article on how to spot a misogynist! I'm less certain about the points in the second one... BUT as a progressive person I do find myself liking one author in particular even though the roles of women in his books really SUX. I'd like to think I'm still a wonderful human being, though...so yeah, that article must be right on target. :)

What points are you not certain about? Just curious.

I don't know that acknowledging that something is problematic makes it ok. yet, there is so much to like about what he writes, that I overlook how he positions women.

It bothers me. Then it bothers me that it bothers me. Like so the fuck what? But then I'm back at the original bother.

It's like, if I am working in the darkroom, and I make a print that is just gorgeous everywhere, but the corner is blown out, it changes the whole print...makes it not worthy of being seen.

I'm constantly doing battle with what I REALLY LIKE versus what I should like based on some nearly unattainable standard of perfection.

Then...there is something really beautiful about things that mixt up.

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This post brought to you by the letter I

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