This post brought to you by the letter I

[clevermanka]

Two nights of decent sleep seems to be my max for now. Went to bed last night at 10-ish. Up at 2:30 this morning. Bummer.

I started to get a migraine yesterday, but managed to fend it off (for the most part) with acupressure and tapping. I can still feel it swirling around back there, though. Ergh. At least today we'll be spared yesterday's weirdo weather (swift weather changes = major migraine trigger for me).

WTF was with those weather shifts? Oh, right. Kansas.

This is a good article on how to spot a misogynist. Thanks, solan_t!

And this is a good article on how to be a progressive person who still likes problematic things.

After a disastrous attempt to put snaps on Watson's coat pockets, I avoided the sewing room for the rest of the evening. It's a good thing I had an extra foot or so of fabric left. I completely destroyed that poor pocket flap. Yikes. I might have to go to Hancock's for more snaps before I finish.

Wow, I'd love to be able to fall back asleep. Maybe if I just curl up on the couch, here...

Comments

[bart-calendar.livejournal.com]

Do you think it's possible for any man to not be somewhat misogynist?

I would argue that to one degree or another all men are misogynist and all women are misandrist.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Heck, I think a lot of women are misogynists.

Do I think it's possible for a man not to be misogynist? Yes. But not in this culture, and not at our current level of emotional evolution.

Similarly, I think everyone is racist as some level. We don't know how not to be racist. Doesn't mean we act like it, and a lot of us actively fight our racist inclinations. But anyone who says s/he "doesn't see race" is full of shit. Heck, there's that study from a couple years ago (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/09/04/see-baby-discriminate.html) that suggested even little babies prefer people of their own color.

It's in our genes/evolution to prefer people like us and dislike The Other. I think that often extends to sex and gender divisions.

[bart-calendar.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I mean I try to be as unmisonginist as possible but I'd be lying if I sometimes didn't think "Fuck, bitches drive me fucking insane!"

And, I've yet to have a female friend who didn't say the same/similar things about dudes from time to time.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

A-yep.

I don't know that humanity will ever evolve past the fear/hatred of The Other. Some people seem to think/hope we will, though. mckitterick just got a book called The Empathic Civilization that I'll never get around to reading, but here's a great summary video:



Your efforts to be as non-misogynist as possible are noticed and appreciated. Thank you!

[alryssa.livejournal.com]

Fuck yes those articles. *bookmarks*

Also I will lol at anyone who thinks misandry is really a thing or even vaguely effective at 'turning the tables' on men given how women just do not have the power to actually use it in anything remotely approaching the systematic oppression of misogyny. Not even remotely close, equal to or having any substance thereof, only ever used by men in response to women asking to basically be treated like human fucking beings instead of pieces of meat, bye, thanks for playing.

Misogyny = Women being collectively oppressed by patriarchal structures deeply rooted in society, designed to keep them from having any kind of autonomy over themselves.

Misandry = One man out of millions whining because one woman won't put up with his bullshit.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Heh.

I totally agree with you that misandry isn't an effective means of turning the tables, and it's not even in the same class of oppression. In fact, it's not really an oppression at all, is it? But I do think it's a real thing.

Is it a thing I worry about very much? Not really, no.

Edit: Okay, I just read this post (http://ontd-political.livejournal.com/9613498.html) and now I'm all in your fuck off camp. So. Um. *fistbump*?

sigh

[alryssa.livejournal.com]

The problem here though is the very word itself connotes a far more powerful concept and assigns far more meaning than actually exists (a good example of gender hatred includes the more extreme versions of Dianic Wicca).


edit: Oh my GOD why won't he just GO AWAY.

[fairgoldberry.livejournal.com]

I think that as institutions go, I agree with you. There is no institutionalized misandry.

However, it's just as possible for someone to be a misandrist as it is to be a misogynist, and to act out that feeling in his or her power structure.

As chernobylred points out above, there is an inherent reaction to The Other. It can be an attraction or a repulsion, but when someone is visibly and tangibly different from you, you note and react to that. We all have prejudices; we started forming them at birth.

In some pagan spaces, I've noticed that men lack a lot of the same voice, agency, and power as women lack in the larger world. My response to that hasn't been to shout, "REVERSE SEXIST BITCHES!" It has been to think, "How do I want my allies, the men who care about my equality and my rights, to act when they see me in a similar situation? How can I model, in my community, the response to kyriarchy I'd like others to make?"

I think the key, whether it's with misogyny, misandry, racism, or any other form of Othering, is to check your own privilege, tear down *institutional* sources of oppression, and be willing and able to examine your own motives and responses to people who are different from you. Individual Othering may go away, it may stay forever, but if we break down the structures that give it control over others' experiences, and we create structures that foster examination of your own prejudices, then it ceases to be a societal problem and becomes one of etiquette ("Hm, that's a very interesting piece of comedy you've done about your girlfriend's PMS, there, but I find that I must decline further social invitations and cease extending them to you as a result of your conduct this evening").

Rowan

[alryssa.livejournal.com]

I'm not denying that hatred of men exists, but I do object to the word itself, because it creates a false equivalency that doesn't exist. I'm merely pointing out that trying to equate it in any sense with the sheer level of political and social power that misogyny holds is really not a good idea.

I will point out though, that hatred of women, aka misogyny, is based on an irrational hatred of women; on the other hand, a hatred (and inherent fear) of men that results from said misogyny is a largely rational one based on the institutionalised oppression thereof.

[tessagratton.livejournal.com]

I AM DYING OF LOVE FOR THAT ARTICLE ABOUT BEING A FAN OF PROBLEMATIC THINGS.

Not only because of it in itself and how I've had that argument ALL THE TIMES, but also because this morning it reminded me that I can't make my complicated novel about characters as realistic as possible completely immune to fucking up on some level and BEING PROBLEMATIC. But it doesn't mean I can't be a good social justice activist (TM).

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Yay for article love!

Completely unproblematic characters are boring.

[mckitterick.livejournal.com]

Exactly! If we try to make all our characters unproblematic, our writing eventually ends up sounding like preaching instead of realistic fiction. But I like that the article also says we need to acknowledge the problems and not try to gloss over them.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

I like that the article also says we need to acknowledge the problems and not try to gloss over them.

I like the part about it being uncool to try to convince other people that they shouldn't find something problematic, and should like it (or at least not hate it) just because you can live with its problems.

This looks like a good opportunity for a weird rant.

[femfataleatron.livejournal.com]

In our glorious world of moral/ethical relativism it's SOOOO EASY to call anyone a hypocrite. Simply focus on any detail of a given philosophy and you'll find numerous exceptions, special cases and apologies contained withint that same philosophy. To me this makes the argument that someone is a hypocrite incredibly BORING. Since it's a common, if not the most common rhetorical technique these days, it makes for a terribly uninteresting decade. Even the personal attacks are done with comparatively little style.
Despotic egoism is the only system left without the possibility contradiction... No wonder so many gravitate toward it.
"If I like it it mUst be good!"
Just because you like something or it appeals to you doesn't make it good or right or even desirable. This sort of stance implies that one's taste is more than simply an individual mode for arbitration, and can be applied to the world in general. This is just silly.
One that note: I'm going to lump my misogyny and racism in with my misanthropy and call it good. I don't hate (fill-in-in the -blank ), I just hate you. ...Because of your thumbs, self-consciousness, face, whatever.

Re: This looks like a good opportunity for a weird rant.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Just because you like something or it appeals to you doesn't make it good or right or even desirable

Hear, hear.

I admit that a lot of the things I like are crappy, problematic, of questionable value, or all of the above.

I'm going to lump my misogyny and racism in with my misanthropy and call it good.

*fistbump*

I (usually, occasionally) like a few people. But humanity in general can suck it as far as I'm concerned.

[siro-gravity.livejournal.com]

I loved that article on how to spot a misogynist! I'm less certain about the points in the second one... BUT as a progressive person I do find myself liking one author in particular even though the roles of women in his books really SUX. I'd like to think I'm still a wonderful human being, though...so yeah, that article must be right on target. :)

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

What points are you not certain about? Just curious.

[siro-gravity.livejournal.com]

I don't know that acknowledging that something is problematic makes it ok. yet, there is so much to like about what he writes, that I overlook how he positions women.

It bothers me. Then it bothers me that it bothers me. Like so the fuck what? But then I'm back at the original bother.

It's like, if I am working in the darkroom, and I make a print that is just gorgeous everywhere, but the corner is blown out, it changes the whole print...makes it not worthy of being seen.

I'm constantly doing battle with what I REALLY LIKE versus what I should like based on some nearly unattainable standard of perfection.

Then...there is something really beautiful about things that mixt up.

[dotar-sojat.livejournal.com]

I gotta go to bat for Tolkien re: the evil race of orcs.

Morgoth's creation of the orcs (or his mutilation of an unfortunate group of elves into the race of orcs)is perhaps the Biggest Crime he commits-- and that's saying a lot. But it's high on the list because what he essentially does is remove their free will-- they have no choice but to be the horrible creatures they are.

In the scenes where there you actually get to hear the orcs talk, this is confirmed again and again. Sure, they start off reasonable enough, even likable in a dogface Willie and Joe kind of way, but in the end what is on their minds is murder and torture, in good times and bad. And that is the great tragedy of it.

Being Tolkien, this tragedy is echoed again and again. Mostly in Frodo and Bilbo's own loss of free will regarding the ring, and of course Gollum's complete lack of choice regarding the ring.

One could, as I do, argue that the Urik Hai are not quite orcs and not quite men, but something in between, and perhaps they do not suffer from this lack of choice... they are perhaps more creatures of nuture (Sarumon did breed them for one purpose: war) than nature.

The only Urik Hai we ever get to know is Ugluk, who love him or hate him, things went down exactly as he said they would.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

Are you willing to go to bat for Tolkien's portrayal of Eastern/Arabic cultures?

[alryssa.livejournal.com]

I was about to say... if we're going to pick on the problematic elements of Tolkien, I wouldn't start with the orcs. The Easterlings are the most blatantly problematic thing about LOTR because there specifically is no ambiguity as to his influence and perspective thereof.

[dotar-sojat.livejournal.com]

I would argue that just as the Urik Hai are potentially victims of circumstances beyond their control, the Easterlings get a double-dose of that same thing. They are victims of geography (close to Sauron, far from anyone who actually knows who/what Sauron is, or how to combat him), and history (being sometimes-allies of Sauron and the orcs the EAsterlings have found themselves as the enemies of "the west"-- a chasm that is not bridged by the time of the Lord of the Rings).

There were two wizards who went east (the blue wizards), and were never heard from again... which is why Gandalf does not venture that direction.

Aaaaand, I would point out that if one slogs through all the appendices in the Lord of the Rings, nobody comes out looking all that good. The elves know the whole story but can't seem to be bothered to do much about it. The Dwarves are focused on their crafts and riches and don't seem to care much about the Big Picture. The kingdoms of the west, the "good guys" fight among themselves (Angmar is in the Northeastern part of the west, practically next door to the shire!), and Numenor and Gondor both do some incredibly petty and destructive things.

[mckitterick.livejournal.com]

See, I think the orcs are the great victims in LotR. They're raised in unbearably abusive situations, then must serve evil masters, and come out as monsters. Who wouldn't?

Can they leave their posts, stop doing evil? If they do, they'll be killed on the spot. Can they run away to the west and, say, take up farming? Good luck convincing the local humans, elves, dwarves, and so on that you're not one of the "bad" orcs.

Tragic. I feel sorry for them. I've been working out a story about their plight.

[clevermanka.livejournal.com]

You're late to the game, babe (http://www.salon.com/2011/02/15/last_ringbearer/). Sorry.

[dotar-sojat.livejournal.com]

Well, yeah, that's the exact point, the tragedy of it.

I believe that Tolkien once said that he always felt a little sympathy for the orcs, but he never felt any sympathy for the Germans.